The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Presiding Officer (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call the National Assembly to order.

1. Statement by the Presiding Officer

Before we begin, Members should have been informed by their business managers of my intention to be stricter from now on in ensuring that Members ask short, succinct questions. The Business Committee agreed that this is the best way of ensuring effective scrutiny, and I will call to order any Member who deprives others of the opportunity to scrutinise by not coming quickly to a question.

2. 1. Questions to the First Minister

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

The first item on the agenda this afternoon is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Nick Ramsay.

<p>The Llanfrechfa Specialist Critical Care Centre</p>

Nick Ramsay AC: 1. Will the First Minister provide an update on the timescale for developing the Specialist Critical Care Centre at Llanfrechfa? OAQ(5)0190(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes. Following an independent review carried out over the summer, I can confirm that the Cabinet Secretary will receive the information that he needs next week and will then be able to move towards making a decision.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thank you, First Minister. You did indicate that that might be the case last week. There is growing concern in south-east Wales at the rate of progress with the specialist critical care centre, first planned over 10 years ago. You’ve said that the health Secretary is going to have that information at his disposal in the near future. Will you do what you can to take charge of this issue now, as a First Minister, and as a Welsh Government, to make sure that people in south Wales can be reassured that they are going to get that vital piece of the national health service infrastructure that they’ve waited for for a long time and really do need as soon as possible?

Carwyn Jones AC: The information is there. I also have to pay tribute to Lynne Neagle, my colleague, the Member for Torfaen, who has been unstinting in her advocacy of the SCCC. And it’s right to say that, with a project of this size, full consideration has to be given to the project from a financial perspective, but the decision-making process can now begin, as it will be in the hands of the Secretary next week.

<p>The Social Prescription Pilot Scheme</p>

Jayne Bryant AC: 2. Will the First Minister make a statement on the Social Prescription pilot scheme? OAQ(5)202(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: We are committed to piloting a social prescription scheme as part of our programme for government, and we are currently working with stakeholders to scope how the scheme could best operate.

Jayne Bryant AC: Thank you, First Minister. Social prescribing offers an opportunity to look beyond medication. Chronic loneliness is as bad for our health as smoking 15 cigarettes a day, and as damaging as obesity and physical inactivity. Research shows it affects people across their lifetime. Befriending groups can provide a vital lifeline in the battle against loneliness and are one example that can help reduce medication. In Aneurin Bevan health board, there’s an exciting new project called ‘Ffrind i Mi’ which is designed to act as a prescription for loneliness. Does the First Minister agree with me that communication between health and community services must be as good as possible to make this work, and what support can be given to encourage volunteers, who will be crucial to the success of social prescribing?

Carwyn Jones AC: It’s absolutely correct to say that we need to look at holistic approaches to helping people when they feel depressed and when they feel isolated, and the Member’s right to point that out. I can say that the Welsh Government is providing £180,000 over the next three years to help develop volunteer-led networks that support lonely and isolated people within communities, similar to the scheme that she’s already mentioned.

Angela Burns AC: First Minister, as you’re aware, social prescribing is highly dependent on the third sector, the community organisations and voluntary groups. However, many rural communities have faced consistent downgrading of community assets and the support networks. How will the Welsh Government, the health boards, and local government work effectively together to ensure that community assets are in place? A brief example is the threatened closure of the Avenue Centre in Tenby, which was being threatened with closure under the terms of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. That’s what the local government tried to do. If you take that kind of asset away, then social prescribing, which we utterly support and think is an excellent way forward, is really going to struggle to be delivered on the ground specifically in rural communities. So, how are you going to tie all this together to make sure—

You’ve asked your question. First Minister.

Carwyn Jones AC: It’s absolutely right that good communication between health and community services will be crucial for the networks to be developed and established in order to spend the money that I referred to earlier wisely. We did launch our new three-year delivery plan for our mental health strategy, ‘Together for Mental Health’, yesterday, and the social prescribing pilot included in the delivery plan will also complement that action. I would hope then that local government can learn from the delivery plan and implement best practice in their areas.

<p>Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders</p>

Questions now from the party leaders, and I first of all call the leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, I ask these series of questions as a supporter of alleviating the traffic congestion around Newport. But, last week’s announcement was bitterly disappointing, in connection to the potential delay of finding a solution around the traffic problems in that part of Wales. There was a clear letter issued last week to a Member in the Assembly here, which highlighted how the Welsh Government had interacted at various workshops, consultations, and, indeed, the change in methodology had been highlighted as early as 2014 and confirmed in workshops in March 2015, and then brought forward in July 2016. Why did it come as such a shock to the Welsh Government that this methodology was changing and, ultimately, could potentially delay the advancement of the project?

Carwyn Jones AC: This is a curious tale, Llywydd, which, I think, with your permission, I’d like to elaborate on. First of all, the letter received by Mohammad Asghar was dated 6 October. It apologised for the delay in responding—remarkable, given the fact the announcement was made on 3 October. I do wonder when that letter originally was sent, then, because, normally, we don’t get a response within three days from the Department for Transport apologising for the delay. That is curious, is it not?Secondly, of course, it is not right to say that the information, the planning data, was before the Welsh Government at any time before July of this year. No indication was given by the Department for Transport as to what that planning data would look like. In fact, they said, after the referendum, that they believed that there would be a delay in the publication of that data—that is what our officials were told. It is not the case either that officials had the information before the end of July. What actually happened was that our officials discovered that Highways England had received the information two weeks beforehand. It had not been shared with us as a Government. The information was requested; it was not provided until 28 July.Even more curious is that the data that was provided is normally, I understand—normally—provided in draft, where a nine to 12-month consultation period is allowed in order for the data to be examined and questioned. On this occasion, it hasn’t been published in draft; it’s been published in final form, which disturbs us because the data is so badly flawed. For example, it uses planning data for Wales that is not included in the local delivery plan and has no apparent basis in fact. We’ve not been provided with any information as to where the DfT got this information from.Once the data is provided, it takes a long time to work out what the effect of that data is on any particular road scheme, which is why, normally, there is the nine to 12-month period for it to happen. On this occasion, nothing. It was made final straight away. Curious, then, that Highways England were told before us, and, of course, we know, having analysed the data, that what this set of data does is, in fact, benefit schemes in London, the south-east of England and the east of England at the expense of everywhere else. Even more curious, isn’t it?So, we’re calling on the DfT to re-examine these figures, to work with us to re-examine these figures, to tell us where they found the planning data from, and to work with us in order to provide figures that are far more accurate for the Welsh context. So, there are many curious issues that have been raised there, to which we have not yet received an answer.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you for that very detailed answer, First Minister. I don’t think there’s very much curiosity around any of this. We have been highlighting for the last 12 months that the methodology did need to be revisited so that the blue and black route could be evaluated on the same methodology, so that, ultimately, the two routes could be compared favourably, and that you could take forward either the blue or the black route. The Welsh Government solution to the traffic crisis around south-east Wales—because it is a crisis; the logjam on the M4 at certain times of the day can stretch back over 12 miles—is to favour the black route. So, can you commit to having a traffic solution in place by 2021 so that people can have confidence that your manifesto commitment to deliver that solution will be met by 2021?

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes, that is the aim, but it is not helpful when we have Government departments in Whitehall that are acting in this way. They knew that there was a public inquiry that would begin in the autumn of this year, and yet this data was—we had to ask for it, we had to ask for it; it wasn’t even provided, and we were not notified that it even existed. And then, of course, officials worked very hard through August to look at the data, to see what it would mean for Welsh road schemes. It’s not just Wales that’s affected; it’s everywhere outside the south-east of England that is adversely affected by this data. So, as far as the Department for Transport are concerned, I would urge them to revisit this data, to have a proper process, where data is published in draft and then opportunity is given to examine that data, to examine its robustness, rather than adopt the strange and unusual approach that they’ve adopted so far.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Well, I disagree with you about the strange and unusual process. I mean, as I’ve highlighted, this process has been going on for two years, clearly identified that, in 2016, this change would be coming down the road at you and, obviously, your Government didn’t respond. Traffic Scotland were involved in the negotiations and the Northern Ireland Department for Infrastructure were negotiating with the Department for Transport. They’re all on this letter and identified as participants in the workshops and the consultation. But what is important is that we do find a solution to the traffic gridlock that exists in south-east Wales. Your Government has put its colours firmly on the mast of the black route, and you’re actually on record as saying that if you did support the blue route you could‘kiss goodbye to winning elections in Newport for a generation.’ So, is it winning elections that’s driving the decisions around the traffic gridlock and the solutions to solve that gridlock or are you actually looking at what the best solution is both financially and in terms of dealing with traffic projections going forward, First Minister?

Carwyn Jones AC: It is a fact that the blue route goes past many, many homes and would affect, we think, up to 4,000 people. That’s the reality of it. It would pass very, very close to their houses and, in fact, some buildings will have to be demolished, both commercial and residential. There’s no avoiding that, and I doubt very much whether any Government would be looked upon favourably if it were to move ahead with the blue route without proper consultation. We’ve said in the public inquiry that the public inquiry will look at both the black and blue routes. We want the inquiry to be as wide-ranging as possible and to be as open as possible so that people can see that the process is one that they can have faith in. But I have to say once again: any suggestion that the Welsh Government was involved or knew of the data that was provided on 25 July is wrong—wholly wrong and wholly untrue. I don’t accuse him of saying that, but I’m saying that the information he has received is simply wrong. What happens is that they work on this and they inform people of what they’re doing. On this occasion they did not even tell us when the figures were going to be published. They shared them with Highways England first. They didn’t even tell us they’d done that. We had to ask for them and, when they were shared with us, they were shared with us on the basis that is abnormal. Normally, the data is shared and nine to 12 months is available for the data to be examined carefully. That was not done at this time, and here we have a set of data that at the moment would benefit London and the south-east of England at everyone’s expense, and that we cannot accept.

Leader of the opposition, Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood AC: Diolch, Lywydd. First Minister, the UK Home Secretary last week announced plans to force companies to publish lists of their foreign workers—a regressive step, I’m sure you’ll agree with me. It’s not clear exactly how this information was intended to be used, but I’m concerned that it could have led us down a very dark path indeed. Since then, the UK Government has rowed back on that position, after a public outcry, but the data are still going to be gathered and there remain questions to be asked about what will happen to that data. Can you prevent any of these measures taking place in Wales?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, I think the word that’s now being used is ‘nudge’. They want to nudge companies in that direction. What I can say is that as far as we are concerned as a Government, we’re not going to do that, nor are any of the bodies that we sponsor. At the end of the day, it’s a matter for companies who they employ. I don’t think it’s helpful to have lists of people that would be used against those businesses for many, many reasons: firstly, because of what I think is the sinister side of it, which is to suggest that if people are not UK passport holders then they are in some way imposters in the jobs that they hold, which is the message that it would actually convey; and secondly, I can think of no more powerful disincentive to an investor than an investor being told, ‘If you come to Wales or come to the UK, you’ll have to tell us how many workers from outside the UK that you will employ’. They don’t have to do that in other countries, and that’s another barrier to investment as far as Wales is concerned. Like me, I know that she shared the same view very quickly and very publicly when the announcement was made. I do not think that creating lists of people from outside the UK with a view to using those people against the companies who employ them is the right way forward for Wales or Britain.

Leanne Wood AC: Thank you for answer, First Minister. I very much welcome the sentiment that you’ve conveyed there. Many of our problems in Wales don’t stem from certain people moving in to the country but they stem from the fact that many of our young people move out and don’t return, and this is especially true of graduates, where we have a lower retention rate than any other UK nation. There’s been a lot of focus on immigration, particularly around the debate on Brexit, yet very little attention has been given to out-migration. Plaid Cymru believes that graduates should be able to live and work where they choose, but we should also be able to incentivise some of them to come back so that we can see a return on our public investment, if you like, in their education. We are the only party to have proposed a mechanism, through higher education, to incentivise students to return to work, and you’ll be aware that we put forward those proposals ahead of May’s election. In that election, you had no policy on this and you claimed that Plaid Cymru would charge students fees. If you implement the Diamond review, fees are likely to be charged by your Government. Will you now accept that we do need to incentivise graduates to return to Wales after study? If you do agree with me, what do you intend to do about it?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well—[Interruption.]—the reality of the situation is that, if I recall, the—I think the Minister has intervened there, but I will answer the question. If I remember, the policies that she was pursuing in May would have meant that students would have been incentivised to stay in Wales, in the sense that their fees would have been paid if they’d studied in Wales but not elsewhere. That’s not a position that I would share. [Interruption.] From my perspective, what I want to do is to make sure that we attract students into Wales, not just those who are from Wales, but outside Wales as well, and make sure that there are skilled jobs there for them.For me, it’s not a question of whether they leave, it’s a question of enabling them to return. Because I see no reason why young people wouldn’t want to leave, gain experience elsewhere, and come back and bring that experience back with them, in the same way as I know that there are people who will come to Cardiff in their 20s and then go back to rural Wales when they’re older. I think they take their experience back with them. For us, it’s all about ensuring that the jobs are there. It’s why unemployment is at 4.1 per cent—lower than Scotland, lower than England, lower than Northern Ireland—and it’s why we are seeing Wales as a good place to invest, to bring skilled jobs, on behalf of so many international companies.

Leanne Wood AC: First Minister, you completely misunderstood what we were proposing ahead of that election. What you just said we should be doing is exactly what we were saying should be done, and what you were attacking us for in that election. I suggest you need to get better briefed next time.I’d now like to turn to a serious issue that’s been raised with me by a Welsh volunteer in the Calais refugee camp. Only yesterday, the UK Government agreed to house the 378 children from the camp in Calais who’ve got connections here in the UK. The woman who has contacted me told me that she’s encountered an unaccompanied child in Calais who is being horrifically exploited by traffickers. She relayed a story to me of how this young boy of 12 has been given heroin by traffickers, promising him that it will help him get to the UK easier and it will make his journey easier. And on his addiction to heroin, he was passed by the traffickers to predatory men outside the camp, not other refuges, who paid those traffickers, with violence being the price of refusal along with the withdrawal of heroin, on which, of course, he is now completely dependent.Now, I’m sure that you’ll agree with me, First Minister, that this is a completely abhorrent situation, and I’m sure that you will, like me, want to do what you can to help children in vulnerable situations like this. During the second world war, we did what we could, of course, to help the Kindertransport children. To help these children today, we need to ensure that our child protection systems are ready and prepared to accommodate what will be incredibly vulnerable children who may be sent to Wales. If we are to remove those children from a very vulnerable situation, we can’t risk putting them into another vulnerable situation. So, how can you ensure that local authority social services departments in Wales are ready to step up and help these children now?

Carwyn Jones AC: Who can disagree with the powerful testimony that the leader of the opposition has given us? I’ve no reason to disbelieve what has been said. In an atmosphere of desperation, predators will thrive, and it seems that that is the case in Calais.Last week, I met with the Welsh Local Government Association’s responsible elected member for refugees, Dyfed Edwards, the leader of Gwynedd, and we did work through some of these issues, including unaccompanied children. It’s true to say that few refugees have come to Wales thus far, but the two of us did talk about how we can help local authorities to resettle adult refugees as well as unaccompanied children. Of course, we agreed to work together as well in order to make sure that, where we feel that funds should come from a non-devolved source, those funds do come from Whitehall. But, certainly, it was a good meeting and it emphasised, once again, that ourselves and the WLGA very much want to ensure that children have a safe haven in Wales and are able to move away permanently from the sort of exploitation that she’s relayed to us.

Leader of the UKIP group, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: First Minister, in the year 2000, Wales was second from bottom in the league tables amongst the nations and English regions in the UK for gross weekly earnings. In the interim period, earnings have gone up by 55 per cent in Scotland, 51 per cent in Northern Ireland, but only 46 per cent in Wales. So, we now have the dismal accolade of being bottom of those league tables. We’ve had Labour Governments either in Cardiff or Westminster for either all or most of that time. Do you and your party accept any responsibility for this record of failure?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, he was a member of the Conservative Party once, in the 1980s, and if you look at the statistics—and I can provide him with the graphs on this—inequality increased markedly—markedly—in the 1980s compared to any other decade. That was when people started to lose confidence in politics, when they saw inequality rise. I can say to him that, if we look at the level of employment in Wales, that’s at a record high, far higher than it was when he was in Government. Unemployment is 4.1 per cent, far lower than it was when he was in Government. Youth unemployment in Wales is 13.7 per cent; the UK rate is 14.1 per cent. The fall in Wales was nearly 5 per cent over a year. That’s Jobs Growth Wales for you, and the way that it actually operates. So, as far as numbers are concerned, we know that the economy is moving in the right direction.It is right to say that the challenge is to make sure that we raise people’s incomes. The way to do that is to make sure they have the skills that are required in order to bring in well-paid jobs from investors who are coming in from abroad, but also that they have the ability and confidence to set themselves up in business and succeed in the future. None of these things were in place when he was a member of the Conservative Party. No party did more to wreck our economy, raise unemployment and create more inequality than the party he was once a member of.

Neil Hamilton AC: I don’t intend, Llywydd, to rehearse the arguments about the winter of discontent in 1979, which led to all the cuts that took place in the 1980s; we’re here to talk about the twenty-first century, not the twentieth. But, looking forward to the future, although the First Minister won’t accept his responsibility for this record of failure, isn’t it clear that we now need to create in Wales an enterprise economy, a low-tax jurisdiction, relatively speaking, and one where we have proportionate regulation? The opportunity that Brexit provides gives us the tools with which to achieve what both he and I want, which is greater prosperity for the Welsh people?

Carwyn Jones AC: I’m not surprised he doesn’t want to discuss his record in the 1980s, but there was one phrase there that I picked up on—the creation of a low-tax economy. Now, I thought his party’s line was that they didn’t want to see any tax devolution to this place. So, he must make his mind up as to what he means by that. I think there is merit in looking, for example, at the way corporation tax operates, particularly in terms of tax breaks, and I think the Treasury needs to be far more flexible in terms of the powers that it gives in that regard. Why not, for example, have a system of tax breaks for research and development in Wales? These are the sorts of powers that I think will be practical, without carrying too much danger in terms of any potential loss of income through the Barnett formula. So, I think it’s quite correct to say that we want to make sure that Wales is a good place to invest. We see it—we’ve seen a number of big investors coming in to Wales over the past year and beyond. There is the challenge of Brexit, of reassuring investors in the future that they’ll have access to the European market, bigger than America and Russia combined, and we intend to make sure that they see Wales as a natural place to invest to access that market in the future.

Neil Hamilton AC: My party is not against the devolution of income taxes per se, what we’re against is the devolution of income tax without a referendum, as we were promised before 2011. But, moving to the future and the opportunities that Brexit provides, isn’t it rather disappointing that the European advisory group that the First Minister has appointed, of 20 members, has lots of politicians and academics on it, but very few people with practical business experience? As far as I can divine from looking at the names, very few of these worthy people were actually in favour of leaving the European Union. In fact, the only one I can positively identify is my honourable friend for North Wales, Nathan Gill. Would it not be sensible, therefore, to have more people who actually see Brexit as an opportunity rather than something to be feared on this group?

Carwyn Jones AC: The purpose of the group is not to re-fight the referendum; the result is clear. The purpose of the group is to advise Government—not take decisions, but advise Government—on potential ways forward. For example, looking at models like Norway—can that be adapted? Are there other models? These are the things we need to look at. Nathan Gill is a member of that group. He is an MEP, that’s why he is on the group, and he is someone who has contributed greatly to the work of the group thus far, and is somebody who can bring his experience in Europe and use it to good effect on our group.

<p>Schools Funding Levels in South Wales West</p>

Dai Lloyd AC: 3. Will the First Minister make a statement on schools funding levels in South Wales West? OAQ(5)203(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: The Welsh Government will shortly publish its next draft budget and the provisional local government settlement for 2017-18.

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you for that response, First Minister. Naturally, we all understand the complexities of the funding formula, but can I ask you what you’re doing to secure adequate funding for smaller schools?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, it’s a matter for local authorities, of course, to ensure that there is sufficient funding for their schools. We give them, of course, the funding and we expect them to spend an adequate amount of money on their schools in order to create good education in their areas. But, of course, the responsibility lies with the local authorities for funding their individual schools.

Mike Hedges AC: Does the First Minister agree with me that what is important is outcomes not inputs? And will the First Minister join me in congratulating Swansea council on record-breaking GCSE results, and Pentrehafod School and Morriston Comprehensive School—two Schools Challenge Cymru schools—on their excellent GCSE results?

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes, I do very much welcome where Pathways to Success schools have improved with the support of Schools Challenge Cymru. I’d also like to congratulate Pentrehafod and Morriston, which I understand have recorded their best ever sets of results while taking part in the challenge, and the Member is rightly proud of the comprehensives in his area.

Darren Millar AC: First Minister, it was back in December 2011 that the then education Minister, Leighton Andrews, made an announcement about £1.4 billion-worth of expenditure for the twenty-first century schools programme. That, of course, covered South Wales West and, indeed, other parts of Wales. Can you tell us how much has actually been released of that cash, given that we’re now five years into the programme and that £700 million was supposed to have been spent within the first seven years?

Carwyn Jones AC: I believe that half of it, roughly, has been allocated. It’s a matter, of course, for local authorities to come forward with schemes to replace or, indeed, to repair school buildings, and I’ve seen them up and down Wales—from Rhyl to St Teilo’s in Cardiff. I was in the Deeside sixth not a few weeks ago, and we see that new buildings are going up all over Wales to provide facilities that youngsters need and expect, while at the same time nothing is happening under his party in England.

Caroline Jones AC: First Minister, cuts in local authority budgets have put pressure on school budgets throughout my region. In addition to school budgets, Swansea council have also increased the amount they charge for service level agreements, which is impacting upon schools’ ability to deliver things like music lessons, swimming lessons and the supply of library books. Swansea now has one of the lowest per pupil funding levels in Wales. Will the Welsh Government consider the impact that budget cuts are having on schools in my region when it sets the level of Government funding in the forthcoming budget?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, of course, we expect local authorities to allocate money for local services such as education. It’s for them to justify the amount of money they spend on education. It’s true to say that there are some schemes that we run centrally as a Government, but we would expect all local authorities to fund schools in such a way that we continue to see the improvement that we’ve seen over the last few years in children’s education.

<p>Road Safety in Pembrokeshire</p>

Paul Davies AC: 4. Will the First Minister make a statement on road safety in Pembrokeshire? OAQ(5)0188(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: The road safety framework for Wales sets out the actions we and our partners will take to achieve our casualty reduction rates on our roads. The framework will be reviewed once again following the release of the 2016 casualty statistics.

Paul Davies AC: I’m grateful to the First Minister for that response. Road safety is a problem for walkers in lower town Fishguard, and despite positive assurances from previous Ministers, and although a feasibility study was undertaken in 2012-13, the current Minister has asked for another study to build a footbridge. I’m sure that you’re familiar with that part of the town and that it’s important to improve safety in that part of the town. So, what assurances can your Government give to the people of that area that a footbridge will truly be built during the term of this Assembly, rather than having commitments on endless feasibility studies, and what funding will be available for this kind of project?

Carwyn Jones AC: The Member mentions Cwm Gwaun—I’m not aware of any footpath there. I know that there is a problem with Newport to Llwyngwair, if that’s what he’s talking about. In terms of Newport and Llwyngwair, the work is progressing on that. On the issue that he himself has raised, may I write to him on the issue with greater detail so that he can ensure that those details are available to his constituents?

Dawn Bowden AC: I thank the First Minister for his answer on that. I just wanted to widen this slightly to road safety issues that certainly have been raised with me, and I’m sure many other Members, particularly relating to safety around schools. It’s often the case that, even with the provision of zebra and pelican crossings, the safety of children travelling to and from schools is a concern. Ideally, the council would employ school-crossing patrol staff at schools, but, with the cost of that clearly prohibitive, councils need to prioritise their spending without this provision. But does the First Minister agree with me that, as part of their obligations under Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013, there is an opportunity for local authorities, when preparing their maps, to think proactively about addressing road safety concerns in the schools that are in their respective areas?

Carwyn Jones AC: Absolutely. The point of the active travel Act is, of course, to encourage more safety, that much is said, but also, of course, to ensure that local authorities see walking and cycling not just as forms of recreation but as modes of transport, so that more people can be tempted out of cars. Of course, that’s of benefit not just to traffic but to themselves, as individuals, in terms of their health. It was at the very heart of the active travel Act—John Griffiths, of course, is there; he’s somebody who’s very passionate about the Act, and we want to see local authorities ensure that, in the future, cycling and walking are seen as ‘normal’, as they would put it—normal modes of transport alongside other more traditional modes.

Simon Thomas AC: It’s difficult to reach the state of normality that you talk about, First Minister, when cycling accounts for 1 per cent of all journeys taken in Wales and in Pembrokeshire, and being killed or seriously injured on a bicycle is 33 per cent. Therefore there is a huge mismatch there between the journeys taken by those on cycles and those who are killed or seriously injured. It’s particularly true of younger people, where you have a target of a 40 per cent reduction, and you’ve only reduced the number that are killed or seriously injured by 28 per cent. It’s a reduction, but you haven’t reached your target. So, what further steps are you going to take to improve road safety in Pembrokeshire and beyond, particularly for cyclists and young people who have to make use of the roads?

Carwyn Jones AC: Of course, one of the things that the Wales Act will give us is power over speed. On some roads, it would be worth, in my view, considering whether the speed should be reduced in order to safeguard cyclists. There is a risk in cycling, because, obviously, a cycle isn’t as large as a car, but, obviously, we don’t want people to be at an excessive risk. Others would not agree with me on this, but to me it’s important that we have cycle-only paths. Others believe—and I understand the argument—that cyclists should have the same rights on the road as cars. But for many people they don’t have the confidence to go on the road and mix with cars. To me, the development we’ve seen recently—for example, with the Church Village bypass in Rhondda Cynon Taf, where a cycle path has been put in as something entirely usual—that is one way forward in order to ensure that people can use cycles, ultimately, in a way that they believe is safe.

<p>Broadcasters in Receipt of Public Money</p>

Rhianon Passmore AC: 5. What importance does the Welsh Government place on broadcasters in receipt of public money, providing high levels of original programming? OAQ(5)0201(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: We believe that they should properly portray the diverse communities and culture of Wales. We did ensure that the new BBC charter included a much stronger public purpose to deliver that content.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. The chief executive of S4C, giving evidence to the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee last week, stated that 57 per cent of its programmes had been shown before compared to a target of 20 per cent when S4C was launched in 1982. Funding from the BBC licence fee for S4C will remain at £74.5 million a year until 2022, and S4C has also received £7 million from the UK Government. So, what actions can the Welsh Government take to underscore the importance of original, universal programming, when programmes such as the successful, bilingual ‘Hinterland’ are universally applauded and when my constituents are concerned at the lack of representation of English language or bilingual Welsh lives across the public sector network?

Carwyn Jones AC: As we are reviewing the charter, the BBC will be obliged to reflect the diverse communities of Wales and the other nations and regions of the UK. It will now have to set out how it will develop upon those new duties, including improving services for Wales. It’ll be required to report in detail on how it’s doing that. That is a new development and one that we believe will help to stem and, indeed, reverse the slow decline in English-language programming made in Wales.

Dai Lloyd AC: Bearing in mind the Brexit vote, and the need emerging from that to improve the information available to the people of Wales as to what happens in this place and what happens in Wales, and the portrayal of Wales and what exactly we in this Assembly can do and what we can’t do, what discussions have you had with the hierarchy of the BBC and others on the dire need to improve the portrayal of Wales both within Wales and outwith Wales?

Carwyn Jones AC: There is a problem in some parts of the BBC where there isn’t a great deal of understanding of Wales. One of the things that we have discussed with the BBC is whether we should have our own ‘News at Six’ and also our own ‘News at Ten’. This is something that we’ll have to consider ultimately as to whether this is something we would wish to see and how that should be done. It’s true to say, of course, that there is a lack of knowledge and information amongst the people of Wales about what happens here and what we do, and, of course, what happens in Wales itself. So, we must try to ensure that more news is available for the people of Wales that’s appropriate to the people of Wales.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: First Minister, the draft charter provides an opportunity for further scrutiny of the BBC, to include the appointment of a non-executive director to be agreed by the UK and Welsh Governments. Amid concerns that the National Assembly for Wales will not be afforded, however, the same weighting as the House of Commons and the House of Lords, what representations are you making on behalf of this Assembly to ensure that we are part of that decision-making process as regards the appointment of a non-executive director and also the further workings of the BBC?

Carwyn Jones AC: It’s an important point that the Member raises. It is something that we’re considering at the moment. What I can say is that the Assembly will now have powers to scrutinise the BBC—it’s not happened before, of course—to call it to appear before the Assembly and to hold it directly to account, which puts it on a par with the UK Parliament.In terms of the issue that the Member raises, it is something that is still, as I say, under discussion in terms of the ability and the role of the National Assembly as part of that process.

<p>Appropriate Skills in the Workforce</p>

Julie Morgan AC: 6. What is the Welsh Government doing to ensure that there is a workforce with the appropriate skills in Wales? OAQ(5)0206(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: One of the things we’re doing, of course, is to create a minimum of 100,000 all-age apprenticeships during this Assembly term, and that will continue our focus on raising overall skills.

Julie Morgan AC: Would the First Minister be able to tell us what progress has been made on preparations for the introduction of the apprenticeship levy, which was proposed by the former Chancellor, George Osborne? And what are the consequences of that for Wales?

Carwyn Jones AC: It’s an issue that cuts across much of the work that we are doing. I know that the Minister has been involved in many discussions with the UK Government on this. It is an area where—. I don’t believe many businesses know about it, actually, because, when I’ve raised it with many businesses, they’re not aware that the levy is coming and what it would mean for them in terms of cost and certainly not what they might get out of it. So, I think the UK Government still has a great deal of work to do in informing businesses of how it would work, and particularly what it means in terms of meshing with the programmes we already run as a devolved Government.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: There is evidence, of course, that children who fall behind in the early years, particularly in terms of cognitive development, are more likely to struggle later in life in terms of lifetime opportunities. There is now evidence showing that having degree-level practitioners in the early years context is of great assistance in ensuring that that doesn’t happen. Now, your Government, of course, will, in the spring, publish the early years workforce plan, which, hopefully, will give workers in that sector the necessary skills. Will that plan include a clear commitment to ensure that practitioners in the sector are at degree level, particularly those working with children living in poverty?

Carwyn Jones AC: This will be something that will be discussed during the preparations before the plan is published, but we wish to ensure those working with children when the children are at an earlier age have the skills required in order to ensure that the best pathway is followed by those children.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: The Older People’s Commissioner for Wales has stressed the need to keep our older people in the workforce and to bring them back to work as well. How will the Welsh Government ensure that the 100,000 high-quality apprenticeships promised in his programme for government are delivered on a needs base rather than on the age of the person in Wales?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, the intention is, of course, that it’s all-age. I think the question here is making sure that we work with those people who want to come back to work. Some might be retired. They may feel that they are financially comfortable. And, of course, for many people who are retired, they are the basis for the volunteers that we have across Wales. One of the issues that we face as a society, I believe, as people work longer, is the prospect that there will be fewer volunteers in the future because people have less time on their hands. But, nevertheless, the whole point of the all-age scheme is to make sure that it is just that: all-age.

Vikki Howells AC: First Minister, I recently met with Careers Wales staff in Aberdare, and they told me how they’re using the ReAct programme to ensure that people in my constituency who have been affected by redundancy have the skills they need to seek alternative employment. Do you agree with me, First Minister, that Careers Wales and the ReAct programme have a crucial role to play in helping people develop the skills that are needed to re-enter or stay in the workforce?

Carwyn Jones AC: ReAct has been very, very successful, and it’s certainly—. The example that the Member has given illustrates that. From our perspective, we’ll continue to ensure that schemes like ReAct and others that have been so successful over the years continue to work for the benefit of people in terms of them acquiring the skills that they need to enter the workforce.

<p>Improving the Planning Process</p>

David Melding AC: 7. Will the First Minister make a statement on measures to improve the planning process for the provision of housing? OAQ(5)0197(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes. Improvements to the planning system are being delivered through the Planning (Wales) Act 2015 and the wider positive planning improvement programme.

David Melding AC: First Minister, rational land-use policy needs to identify land, provide good-quality pre-planning application advice, and then encourage speedy use so that we don’t have speculative land banks being built up. How will the legislation achieve these core aims?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, it will seek to ensure that—if we look, for example, at the local development plan process—that is done in suitable time. It will look at certain developments and remove them from local authorities in order for them to be considered more speedily, not in terms of less detail but in terms of them being considered in an appropriate timescale. Also, of course, it will ensure that, as far as developers and the public are concerned, there will be a better understanding of how the planning process works and at what point the planning process must be identified. But ultimately it’s a matter of ensuring not just that there is land available, but also that there are various different models available in terms of the type of tenure that people wish to get when they either buy or rent houses.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Local development plans, of course, are central to the process of housing provision, and these plans have been established on the basis of historical statistics as regards the level of population growth. Do you therefore agree that it is high time to develop a more effective way of gauging future demand, and also that we need more strategic collaboration between local authorities in housing provision?

Carwyn Jones AC: There is an opportunity, of course, for local authorities to produce their own figures, if there is evidence for doing that. So, where they say that the figures are incorrect, it is possible for local authorities to say, ‘Well, we have our own figures and they are figures that are supported by evidence. Therefore, these are the figures that we want to use’. Then it’s a matter for the planning inspector as to how much weighting will be given to those figures. So, it is already possible for local authorities to use different figures if they are evidence-based.

Michelle Brown AC: Since the 1960s, Wales has seen many tens of thousands of new homes built that were never destined for local buyers. This has happened on a grand scale across Wales and, in particular, my home area of north-east Wales. The situation we find in rural north Wales, and particularly in parts of Flintshire, is that commuters from across the border buy up the houses as soon as they’re available, distorting the local housing markets. True, these commuters are earning their money in England and spending it in Wales, but at the same time they’re pricing locals out of housing. The situation is cleverly manipulated by planners, developers, estate agents and others in the housing trade as an argument to build yet more new housing, from which most locals are yet again excluded. Improved transport connections between north Wales—

Can you bring yourself to a question, please?

Michelle Brown AC: Okay. I’m coming to it now, Llywydd.[Continues.]—and along the A55 corridor will only exacerbate the problem. Are you willing to introduce legislation to reserve a percentage of the housing stock for local buyers, and, if so, when do you propose to do so?

Carwyn Jones AC: We already, of course, through the planning system, require developers to reserve a certain percentage of housing developments for affordable housing. One of the issues that we have to look at, I believe, is whether there is scope for intervening in the local market in the future in order to ensure that there is sufficient housing available, particularly in villages where, at the moment, there are no plans to build any houses. The reality is that the cross-border flow is there. It is in the economic interests of both the north-east of Wales and the north-west of England to work together for the prosperity of both those regions. It shows, of course, how popular Wales is as a country to live in when people want to live in Flintshire rather than in Cheshire.

<p>A Review of TAN 8</p>

Simon Thomas AC: 8. What plans does the Welsh Government have to review TAN8? OAQ(5)0196(FM)[W]

Carwyn Jones AC: None, at the moment.

Simon Thomas AC: Well, that’s a disappointment, First Minister, because TAN 8 has been in place without significant review since 2005. In a way, it’s failed in its main objective, namely planning for renewable energy and the target that the Government had set. We’re a long way off that target. Of, course we know that new powers in that area will come to the Government, up to 350 MW, which includes all of the terrestrial developments, as well as interesting things such as tidal lagoons. Is it appropriate now to review TAN 8 and to have some enforcement powers for climate change objectives, and also to put pressure on National Grid to strengthen the grid where that needs to be done?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, I don’t believe that the problem lies with the TAN. The problem lies with the boundaries, where we can’t deal with anything in excess of 350 MW—and in marine energy nothing more than 1 MW. Of course, TAN 8 was not considered by Ministers in London. So, it’s not the TAN that’s the problem but the artificial boundaries. We welcome the fact that 350 MW will be the boundary ultimately. There’s no real reason why that’s been chosen. But I quite agree—and he would agree with me, I’m sure—that we should have the same powers over the grid as Scotland has. So, it’s the powers that are a problem and not the TAN.

<p>Trade Between Wales and Ireland</p>

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 9. Will the First Minister make a statement on trade between Wales and Ireland? OAQ(4)0204(FM)[W]

Carwyn Jones AC: Ireland is our fourth largest export market, with Welsh exports to Ireland worth just over £1 billion in 2015.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: In my constituency of Anglesey, the question of borders with Ireland is one of the most crucial questions in terms of the debate on leaving the European Union. If a border is to be placed around the isle of Ireland, as is suggested—and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has said that he wants to strengthen border controls in the ports and airports of Ireland—then what’s the First Minister’s assessment of the likely impact of that on the most important crossing point in terms of trade between Britain and Ireland, and that’s in my constituency, the port of Holyhead?

Carwyn Jones AC: There are a number of problems. I actually alluded to this before the vote. Nobody wants to see a hard border between Northern Ireland and the republic, but nobody at present knows how that can be avoided. If some kind of system was put in place where you had to show your passport to fly from Belfast to Glasgow or Belfast to Cardiff, the unionists, or the DUP and the UUP, would be completely against it. They’ve said that they wouldn’t wish to see a system where you had to show a passport to travel, as they would see it, from one part of the United Kingdom to another. If that does become the position, I don’t see what will take place in Holyhead, Pembroke Dock or Fishguard, because there would be different immigration policies in the republic and in the UK. So, I can’t see what kind of system they can have, unless it is one where you have to show a passport. Nobody wants to see it happening, but no-one has come up with a way to solve this problem. It won’t be of benefit to the residents of Ynys Môn or Holyhead.

Thank you, First Minister.

3. 2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item on the agenda is the business statement and announcement, and I call on Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Llywydd, I have two changes to make to today’s agenda. The Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children will make a statement on resilient communities and, after today’s debate, the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs will make a statement on last week’s oil spill at Nantycaws in Carmarthenshire. Business for the next three weeks is as shown on the business statement and announcement, which is available to Members among the meeting papers available electronically.

Steffan Lewis AC: Today it was announced that Newcastle-Gateshead will host the first Great Exhibition of the North of England, and we also know that Manchester is planning a bid for the World Expo in 2025. Can we have a statement from the Government on its plans to support a bid from a Welsh city to host a major event in order to showcase Welsh innovation? And would the leader of the house agree with me that there couldn't be a better possible candidate city than the great city of Newport?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, I think, Steffan Lewis, you have raised a very important point about opportunities for bidding appropriately, as I'm sure we would do so, in terms of search an event—and take on board your preference in terms of Newport.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Leader of the house, is it possible to have a statement from the transport Minister, please, in relation to lighting on trunk roads? Obviously, trunk roads are the responsibility of Welsh Government, but the pass the day-to-day management over to local authorities in many instances. I’ve noticed, particularly on the A48 through the Vale of Glamorgan, but also in other areas where the trunk road network runs, that there is a considerable number of lights now deliberately switched off. I presume there's a variety of reasons for why that is the case, but it would be good to understand exactly what criteria the Welsh Government set out as to the acceptability of these lights being switched off, which, in some instances, are on quite busy and dangerous junctions. To date, I've yet to find out what the criteria are, so, could we have that statement from the transport Secretary to clearly understand what criteria local authorities are working to under their management agreement with the Welsh Government?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, this is a matter for the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure in terms of responsibilities for trunk roads and guidance to local authorities in terms of maintenance and management. Of course, there are risk assessments, as you will be aware, in terms of safety for pedestrians and, indeed, for all who travel on trunk roads and, indeed, on local road networks as well. So, I will seek to clarify the position in terms of lighting on trunk roads.

Julie Morgan AC: Members of Haemophilia Wales have welcomed the period of specific Welsh consultation announced by the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport last week in his written statement on payments to people affected by NHS-supplied contaminated blood, because this will give an opportunity for their own particular views to be fed into the system. So, would the leader of the house ensure that there is time, following the consultation, for the Cabinet Secretary to come to the Chamber to make a statement and to tell us about what consultation has been received, and then also on the consequent decisions?

Jane Hutt AC: I thank Julie Morgan for that question and acknowledge that I know the Cabinet Secretary for health would also acknowledge your close involvement and support, particularly for those who have been affected—and the Haemophilia Wales group has welcomed the statement issued last week. And, of course, it does bring an end to uncertainty, as the Member says, about the level of financial support people affected by contaminated blood will receive from the Welsh Government in the future. But, I think, as you say, the importance in terms of now looking forward to responses in terms of work that will be done and taken forward is important—those future arrangements; the seeking of further views—and I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary will want to return to make sure that this is reported back to the Assembly and Senedd appropriately.

Mark Isherwood AC: Could I call for two statements? Firstly on fragile X. Yesterday, in fact, was fragile X awareness day, and, last week, I joined families living with fragile X, a fragile X researcher and the chief officer of the Fragile X Society to walk a mile around Cardiff Bay as part of the ‘fragileXpedition’ of 8,026 miles around the whole of the UK to raise awareness of one of the most common, yet unknown, genetic conditions in the United Kingdom. It is, in fact, one of the most common inherited causes of learning difficulties and is understood to be the underlying cause of up to one in 20 cases of autism. It affects about 600 people in Wales, as well as a further 8,000 who are carriers, yet many people have never heard of it. This has a highly detrimental impact on diagnosis, support and treatment for people with the condition and their families. Given that yesterday was the national awareness day, I hope that my request for a statement will receive an encouraging response.Secondly and finally, could I call for clarification on the responsibility for issues affecting poverty within the Welsh Government? I had a question tabled—‘How is the Welsh Government tackling poverty in Wales?’—on the order paper tomorrow, accepted by the Table Office, but we received a response from the Welsh Government that this falls within the portfolio of the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure, and I’ll therefore receive instead a written answer from him. Clearly, poverty has traditionally been considered by the Welsh Government as a social justice matter, falling in the communities portfolio, with contributory factors including family breakdown, substance misuse, childcare, worklessness as an economic matter, and much more. Many of the aspects around poverty such as the tackling poverty programmes and Communities First still remain in the portfolio of the Minister, and in fact, the question I was going to raise was specifically around child poverty, on behalf of the Children’s Society. I would therefore seek clarity on this. For example, where should we in future direct questions on child poverty? Should it be to the Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure, the Secretary for Communities, or otherwise? Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: I thank the Member for those questions, and I also thank Mark Isherwood for drawing attention to the national awareness day yesterday for a condition that I’m sure many of us in this Chamber were not aware of—and to see that this is a condition, in terms of fragility, that affects a person’s life chances, and it affects many more people than we perhaps would have been aware of. So, I thank the Member for drawing it to our attention today in the business statement.On your second point, of course you are quite right that, in terms of tackling poverty, this is a responsibility across the Welsh Government in terms of ministerial responsibility, but the Table Office was quite right, and you will see this from portfolio responsibilities, that the lead Minister is the Minister for economy and infrastructure. But clearly, if you are gearing your question to issues that affect children or child poverty, it would go to the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children. It is absolutely clear that this is something where there is shared responsibility, but the lead for that in terms of the Cabinet as a whole is Ken Skates.

Russell George AC: I was opposed to the legislation requiring letting agents and managing landlords to undertake training to obtain a licence from Rent Smart Wales, but that debate has been had. I have been contacted by several constituents over the past seven days who have reported to me that Rent Smart Wales don’t seem to have sufficient staff to be able to take calls and queries from members of the public. Now, given the fact that the deadline for completing the training and obtaining a licence is fast approaching, can I ask for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary responsible for housing on Rent Smart Wales and their capacity to communicate and take calls and queries from members of the public effectively?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, we’re quite well aware of the fact that you were opposed to what was a very progressive piece of housing legislation that was supported across this Chamber. But it is important, of course, that it is now implemented appropriately and effectively and so of course we will take on board these issues. But clearly, there is a timeline for this in terms of the responsibilities of Rent Smart Wales, and I will ask the Cabinet Secretary to look at the issue that you raise.

I thank the Minister.

4. 3. Statement: Resilient Communities

The next item on our agenda is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children on resilient communities, and I call on Carl Sargeant.

Carl Sargeant AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. This Government is determined to deliver more and better jobs through a stronger, fairer economy. We are committed to improving and reforming our public services and we are intent on building a united, connected and sustainable Wales. Within my portfolio, my priorities are well-being and economic prosperity. I’m absolutely determined to meet them. To do that, I firmly believe it’s time for a new approach to build resilient communities.For 15 years, Communities First has supported people in some of our more deprived areas. Over that time, the programme has evolved and changed, and in recent years has sharpened its focus on employability, working alongside Lift, and now our Communities for Work and Parents Childcare and Employment programmes. This is vital because, over those 15 years, our economy and society have faced unparalleled change and challenge. In recent years, families and communities have been left reeling from the impact of welfare reform and changes in employment. The bedroom tax and zero-hours contracts were not even thought of when Communities First was launched. In the coming years, we must also navigate our way through the implications of Brexit. It is clear that no single programme can protect communities from changes of this magnitude. Communities First has had a dedicated workforce and I extend my thanks to them for making a real difference to thousands of people. That said, I am not convinced that continuing to focus on 52 small areas is the most effective way to deliver this for Wales.I am minded to phase out the Communities First programme while establishing a new approach to meet the challenges of the future. Every part of the Welsh Government has a role to play in creating a more prosperous nation of resilient communities. That is why, working together across portfolios, we are investing in the prosperity of our nation: creating 100,000 all-age apprenticeships; piloting a Better Jobs, Closer to Home project, designed to create employment and training hubs in areas of high economic deprivation; delivering the most generous childcare offer for working parents anywhere in the UK, and establishing a ministerial taskforce to develop a fresh approach to improving prosperity in the south Wales Valleys; creating the north Wales and south Wales metros; ensuring every child gets the best start in life through an extended pupil deprivation grant; and, carrying out the work on financial inclusion, including support for advice services, credit unions and promotion of financial literacy. It is in this context that we will look afresh in coming months at how the Welsh Government can support resilient communities. And this means communities that are empowered and engaged, communities that are ready and able to work and communities that can offer children the best start in life—safe and strong communities that we are all signed up to. Our new approach will need to reflect the continuing effects of austerity. Clearly, there are difficult decisions to make. I want, therefore, to focus on three key areas going forward: employment, early years, and empowerment.On employment, I want to see resilient communities that have access to jobs and people with the right skills to fill them. Employment offers the best, most sustainable way of escaping poverty, and is fundamental to the new approach to communities. We have made a major commitment to Lift and Communities for Work, and I can confirm today that these important elements of the programmes will continue as planned. Across Government, we are ensuring prosperity for all. The creation of a generous childcare offer for working parents will help to remove one of the major barriers to employment, as well as providing long-term benefits for our children. For early years, more resilient communities prevent and protect children from the impact of adverse childhood experiences or ACEs. ACEs are a major threat to well-being and economic prosperity. Tackling ACEs requires us to be smarter about earlier intervention in the lives of our very youngest members of society.Llywydd, I don’t underestimate the challenges of doing this, but if we want to break the cycle, we must shift resources into prevention and protection. We can do more in our communities to protect against the damage caused by ACEs, and today, I’m inviting organisations to join with us to develop children’s zones for Wales, collaborating seamlessly to improve children’s and young people’s outcomes. This, along with the continuation of Flying Start and Families First, will support disadvantaged children to get the best possible start in life.In terms of empowerment, I want resilient communities to have strong local infrastructure and strong and inclusive leadership. Public service boards, established by the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) 2015 Act, offer a vital means of achieving this.Local authorities also have a key role to play in finding ways to improve local communities’ well-being, embedding integrated, collaborative, long-term and preventative approaches, while reflecting the full diversity of the communities that they serve. Local authorities and PSBs must now step into the leadership role. I will engage, challenge and support them to deliver success. I will offer those local authorities that lead the way, supported by their PSBs in developing a more integrated and empowering approach, the opportunity to pilot greater financial freedom and flexibilities across programmes. This approach will build on the work of the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government to reform local government, ensuring greater participation in civil society and democracy.I also expect empowered communities to have integrated and responsive public services. That is why we are committed to strengthening community provision of health and social care, where possible, moving these away from hospitals into communities. Schools and colleges also play a vital role, so we will pilot a new model of community learning centres, extending community access to services, including childcare, parenting support and family learning. We will promote the co-location and integration of services, building on successful models developed across Wales and beyond.Resilient communities are empowered with a strong voice in the decisions that affect their everyday lives. We will develop a made-in-Wales approach to community assets. We will introduce measures to prevent unnecessary closure, and help communities take ownership of community assets, where appropriate. Implicit within this, and, indeed, throughout our new approach to communities, is an important role for the third sector.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Carl Sargeant AC: Change is never easy, and we cannot duck the new and serious challenges that we face. Rather, we must find a fresh way to respond. Beginning now, we will engage internal and external stakeholders on our future approach, including the proposal to phase out Communities First, and how we will continue to deliver Communities for Work and Lift. We will seek views on how we engage, support and strengthen communities through our new approach, centred on further increasing the resilience of communities, to promote opportunities for all. I expect to make a further statement in the new year.

Bethan Sayed AC: I note the Cabinet Secretary’s statement, and I think that it’s important for us to say, as a party, that the flagship programme that you’re announcing the review and the phasing out of today has come under much scrutiny over the years here in the National Assembly. In fact, we’ve probably had review after review, from the Public Accounts Committee, the communities committee, and so forth, looking at how we can sustain and support our communities.Yet, I would like to ask a question of the Cabinet Secretary. I’ve read the last part of the statement a few times, and you say that you will develop a made-in-Wales approach to community assets, and of the third sector having much involvement. But I genuinely thought that that’s what Communities First was set out to do, and I thought that we were going to be transforming communities, so that they could, by now, after many years of devolution, be empowered in the way that you have said in the statement. So, I’d like to understand, if Communities First is to be phased out, what will be your vision for difference in the future? Will it be another big scheme, such as Communities First, or will it be smaller, potentially more fragmented schemes, because that is why, was it not, that we did streamline Communities First, so that we could try, potentially, to understand why some of the schemes weren’t working and why some of them were, in fact, working in our communities? So, I’d like to hear a bit more about that.I don’t disagree about the legacy of poverty that’s been largely caused by deindustrialisation—considerable problems that still remain with us. But, I need to understand how you are now going to answer those particular challenges. My personal view, having been here for many years now, is that we are very good at looking to treat symptoms and not the causes of poverty. And so we need to get to grips with that. If Communities First was not set up to eradicate poverty in our communities, we need to look around for fresh ideas, but then recognise that, potentially, in many areas, it has not been the success that you and other party members have claimed it to be over the many years of this institution being in existence.On employment, we have the programmes outlined in the statement, but will this actually go hand in hand with economic development? How will you be working with your colleague in that area? Will you be working more closely with your ministerial colleagues to ensure that there are more jobs for people to go into? I would also ask how childcare will be protected when Families First, which provides a lot of these schemes across my region, and elsewhere, is also under review at present.Also—probably like some other people here—I don’t actually know what children’s zones are, so that would be good to try and find out what they are. Because we do have quite a lot of schemes in that area. So, why did you choose to do it in the communities sense, and not through the education system?Obviously, my passion is to do with financial inclusion, so I’d like to understand from you, Cabinet Secretary, how you’ll be going about introducing the action plan for the refresh of the financial inclusion strategy, which I and others put a lot of time into in the previous Assembly. Again, I believe that this is a key life skill and if we can get people out of poverty by making them have the skills to leave schools, to leave with those tools already, within the system, then we will, I think, be able to tackle some of the core elements of poverty.The thing I’d like to finish on was to do with the empowerment part and the public service boards. Do you see that as the main area as to where this empowerment will arise from? Are you looking at other countries and other ways of working, so that communities can truly take part in discussion in Wales? Because I think I’ve stood up, as have many Members from your own side, when we’ve talked about community asset transfer and when we’ve talked about volunteers taking over services in their communities. We need to understand how they will be able to do that without actually having the resource available that somehow may or may not be envisaged from your statement today.So, we will be keeping a close eye on what is happening here. We’re not dismissing the review, but we need to understand why you have come to that particular decision, especially when you’ve launched the new taskforce—sorry, not you, but your colleague Alun Davies—for the Valleys, and how that will all integrate together, because what we don’t want here today is more silos and more Ministers working against one another, not in a negative sense, but in their own departments, and not working together as a nation to deliver for the people of Wales.

Thank you. Cabinet Secretary.

Carl Sargeant AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I thank Bethan Jenkins for her measured questions there. I think that while the Member picked up on the issue of Communities First, actually there’s lots in the statement, I believe, that’s quite exciting with an opportunity to drive Wales forward. I’ll give the Member some examples of the choices that we’ve made and the reasoning behind some of them.We know that, for 15 years, Communities First has been embedded in our communities and we have been keen to ensure that we help communities grow. Prosperity is the key driver here—jobs and growth and skills. This Government’s commitment is two-fold: economic resilience in giving jobs and skills to people across our communities and well-being in terms of the well-being of individuals and the community.The Member is absolutely right to raise the issue of why we’ve put children’s zones or focused on ACEs in this department and this is because the leverage I have in this department is around children and it touches all of my colleagues’ departments in some way, shape or form. I’ve already had conversations with three Members who have a view on education and it’s a view shared by the Cabinet Secretary. Unless we can get well-being built into the resilience of the individual as a child, actually their attainment is impossible. You can’t get people who are suffering from domestic violence or alcohol misuse or drug misuse to learn, so we have to make sure we’ve got the well-being of the individual firstly promoted. That’s why the prevention and intervention approach of this and the child zones—. That’s what we’ll be doing is a wraparound approach to children and their families in areas. We’re going to do some pilot intervention across Wales and then hopefully roll that out.So, what else are we going to do then? If not Communities First, what is that programme? Part of that is about the discussion we’ll be having over the next couple of months to understand about an exit process, but also about what we need to do to build on the programmes we already have in place and how we can make them better. I mentioned in my statement about Families First and Flying Start, which are two key programmes in delivering against the actions they were set up to do. But, where we have some local authorities that are saying to us, ‘If we can have some more flexibility between those two programmes’—. I’ve had conversations with many in this Chamber about where Communities First was very tight in terms of a place-based approach to support. The flexibility between these two programmes, we hope, will be able to target the interventions so it’s not only about being place based, but actually the people outside those areas who need the support and are able to attract support from these areas. The PSBs are a key element in the legislation that we took through in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. It’s about creating a well-being plan, knowing their community and understanding that inclusion and engagement are part of the principles of the WFG Act. I would expect the Minister and also the commissioner to be robust in making sure that happens across Wales.With regard to the issue where the Member mentions financial inclusion, I know the Member has a long-standing history of financial inclusion, and I will offer the opportunity to meet with my staff to talk about the financial inclusion programme and what more we can do in terms of communities and to use her expertise in this field to help drive improvement in and across communities in Wales.

Mark Isherwood AC: I welcome your statement. You say you want to break the cycle and shift resources into prevention and protection and you cite access to jobs, giving people the right skills and support for those jobs, adverse childhood experiences and empowerment—empowerment in communities and empowerment of communities. All of this is something I’ve been arguing for for many years and in recent weeks. I hope that means you might be, in future, supporting some of those proposals.In proposing to phase out the Communities First programme, you state:‘Resilient communities are empowered with a strong voice in the decisions that affect their everyday lives…and help communities take ownership of community assets, where appropriate. Implicit within this, and, indeed, throughout our new approach to communities, is an important role for the third sector.’Why, with the benefit of hindsight, didn’t you accept the recommendations, five years ago, of the WCVA commission’s report, ‘Communities First—A Way Forward’, which said exactly that? Unfortunately, despite me and others presenting their arguments at the time, you personally rejected that.For 15 years after the start of Communities First, child poverty levels in Wales were above England, Scotland and the UK, and so were working-age worklessness figures. Even working-age adults in Wales living in poverty, measured by the 60 per cent median income level—. The level has stayed at the same level, according to Bevan, as 1997, 1998, 1999 and 2000—the beginning of devolution, the beginning of the Communities First programmes.Last year, the commission on social mobility and child poverty said in its state of the nation report that:‘Trends in employment are moving in the right direction, but Wales has higher rates of low pay than other UK countries, keeping many children in poor working families’and that:‘Educational attainment in Wales at all levels…remains unacceptably low’.How do you respond to the statement that the Welsh Government needs to ensure that services and support will be available to all families, including those not located in the most deprived areas? We clearly need to radically rethink the way in which we support our communities, something the sector’s been saying for goodness knows how long. Do you agree, therefore, that the Welsh Government needs to explore ways to build capacity in local communities so that they can take the lead on regeneration projects instead of the Welsh Government deciding what those projects and programmes should be directly, or through commissioned programme deliverers?Two weeks ago, I hosted an event with Co-production Wales, Lives Through Friends, and a team of citizen and user-led organisations in the Assembly, to facilitate a conversation about how there is much more to life than services, recognising that, for too long, policy makers have mistakenly failed to nurture a caring society and have increasingly redefined care as a financial transaction with the consequences of a waste of public money, diminished citizenship and weaker communities.The Care Council for Wales is going to be putting forward expert classes in co-production and there’ll be workshops run by the Wales Co-operative Centre. How will you and your officers engage with those training programmes so that the Welsh Government is fully on board with these community resilience programmes that are already being delivered in Wales and can light the way forward? In fact, the Co-production Network for Wales has highlighted the 1000 Lives team at Public Health Wales as a stalwart in supporting this and other co-production initiatives. The Wales Audit Office are at the forefront of co-productive evaluation and behaviour-change initiatives. Working With Not To is building a great network in north Wales, and links with the School for Social Care Research and a host of statutory and third sector organisations are already making things happen on the ground. How will you engage with them, again, to hopefully together share planning, design and delivery to take this forward?Finally, on that theme, how would you respond to concerns expressed by Oxfam Cymru, who said that the future of the Communities First programme, the Welsh Government’s largest tackling poverty programme, remained unanswered in the Welsh Government’s programme for government, ‘Taking Wales Forward’, and they suggest reforms to Communities First based on the sustainable livelihoods approach. As they say, this three-year Building Livelihoods and Strengthening Communities in Wales project has helped over 1,100 to get their lives on track, helping people identify their strengths and assets in order to identify the root problems preventing them from reaching their potential. They also say it makes financial sense, securing an average return of £4.39 for every £1 spent across Wales—something, I believe, we emphasised in two recent debates in the Assembly. The Welsh Government, they say, must secure lasting change. Do you therefore agree with them that embedding the sustainable livelihoods approach or the asset-based development approach in all policy and service delivery in Wales will help people to break out of poverty and help build resilient communities? Thank you.

Carl Sargeant AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer, and I’m grateful for Mark Isherwood’s contribution. I think, underneath all of that, Mark was actually subtly saying, ‘Well done’ to the Minister, as I think he actually agrees with us, on the basis he was trying to claim credit for some of that. But, on a very real point, the Member raised a couple of issues that I can pick up on. Why was the decision not taken five years ago, and why did we refuse to agree with the recommendations in the report? Well, we didn’t; we made changes to the programme at that time and increased the opportunities around employability, and the last independent report supported the logic model at the time of the refocusing of the 2012 programme. So, we did make some changes. But, we are in a place in time. As I said in the statement, when Communities First was developed, nobody ever envisaged zero-hour contracts or the changes around Brexit or the employment issues. These are things that we have to tackle here and now, and I am excited by the whole new opportunity around the Families First programme and the Flying Start programme, which are very successful interventions—100,000 new all-age apprenticeships and the childcare programme, which is the best settlement around childcare for working parents anywhere in the UK, will be delivered in our communities to help and support the people who he and I represent.With regard to engagement, I’m very keen to work with all organisations to see how we can better deliver for our communities. The Member raised some very specific programmes, and I don’t have a view on those, but working with agencies like the WCVA will ensure that we can get into communities where Government can sometimes find it hard to do so in the engagement programme.I don’t agree with the Member with regard to Oxfam’s view on the issue that this Government has lost its way in terms of promoting and tackling poverty. Jane Hutt earlier said about Ken Skates holding the ring for Government in tackling poverty, and I hold some of the programmes, particularly poverty among children and young people, but it is the responsibility of all of the Government to tackle the issue of poverty. The First Minister has been very clear: just because it doesn’t have a line in the programme for government doesn’t mean we’re not interested. If the Member wished to have a line for everything, then they’d be complaining about the programme for government being three very weighty documents in terms of naming everything that we do. Can I assure the Member that poverty has high prominence to make sure that we tackle this across the Government, and not just me or Ken Skates, but all Ministers within this Government?

Thank you very much. We’ve had some lengthy contributions from the spokespeople. I’ve got a number of people who wish to speak, and more are adding their names to the list as well, so could I ask Members now if they could make a very short introduction to their question? That’s not an invitation for you to have a three-minute speech—that’s a short introduction to your question and then all of your other colleagues will be able to speak in this debate. Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. First of all, I’d like to express my disappointment at the statement by the Cabinet Secretary. I believe that Communities First is doing an excellent job in my constituency. But I’ve said for years that Communities First and Flying Start should be based on communities, not driven by the way the Office of National Statistics decides to collect data. That’s generally been rejected by different Ministers, including the current one. Can I start off with a plus? I welcome the continuation of the Lift scheme. The question I have is: after Communities First, what is going to happen to the following: work done on reducing utility bills; smoking cessation schemes and promoting smoke-free homes; promoting exercise and physical activity; the weight loss programmes; the clothes recycling; the food-growing and eat well schemes; the personal financial planning; the family learning; supporting children’s learning; homework clubs and all the other excellent work currently being done by Communities First in my constituency?

Carl Sargeant AC: I’m grateful to the Member for raising the issues about the things that Communities First does really well, and I also celebrate the work from many communities that has been engaged in by staff and volunteers right across the 52 areas within Wales. But, as I’ve said, we have to consider the time and place now, and I think that there are much stronger interventions that we can lead on through other programmes. And all the things that the Member raises are important; they’re important to him and the community he represents. I’m not saying we should get rid of them either; I’m saying that we have to have a new approach to tackling the issues around prevention and early intervention, as I’ve listed in my statement. I look forward to working with the Member and other communities as to how we can best do this. I think a lot of this is already driven by local people that know their communities very well, working alongside other organisations such as Public Health Wales, who have a good, strong record on adverse childhood experiences and tackling some of the issues that the Member raises today. There are other ways of delivering these services, and I look forward to the discussion that will ensue post this statement.

John Griffiths AC: Minister, I’m looking at the section that refers to integrated and responsive public services in your statement, and the new model of community learning centres. I wonder if you could tell the Chamber a little more about how that would work in relation, for example, to existing ideas around community-focused schools. It seems to me that community-focused schools have a lot to offer in tackling poverty. They can support education through getting parents and the community more involved in the educational effort. They can do a lot around childcare and the extended school day. Community-focused schools can do a lot around sport, physical activity, arts and culture, and the children in the most deprived circumstances often do not get the mum’s taxi experience—it’s only within the school setting, perhaps, that they will get that wider experience. I know it’s patchy across Wales, Minister, in terms of community-focused schools, and I think it would be wonderful if we could develop a mechanism that would require all schools, not just twenty-first century schools, but existing schools stock, to become truly community focused in the way that I’ve described and in other ways. And I wonder if you could say a little bit about community learning centres, how they relate to community-focused schools and whether we can get the mechanism in place to roll out this provision.

Carl Sargeant AC: I’m very grateful for the positive contribution that the Member makes and raises about the important work that community-focused schools do in the way that they change their local community. I’m encouraged that the Cabinet Secretary for Education would be happy to meet with the Member, actually, to discuss the very issues that the Member raises. On the issue around childcare, as listed in the statement regarding children’s zones, this is something that we want to build on, and it’s the same principle, John, as regards how we make sure that we have a healthy young person growing up long term. It’s not only morally right but fiscally right for Government as well, looking and planning for the long term. So, these are absolutely the things that we want to concentrate on in making early interventions. I’m already encouraged that my Cabinet colleagues, while they’ve got a day job to do in terms of their portfolio, are starting to think differently about where we should make clever interventions now—so, not just the firefighting of the day job but actually planning for the future. This is, with young people, exactly the space we need to be in, because where we see this investment being made we see much better outcomes, longer term, for young people and as they grow up.

Lynne Neagle AC: Can I thank you for your statement, Minister? Can I say at the outset that I want to pay tribute to the staff who deliver Communities First in my constituency and also Torfaen council for their leadership of the project, and to say emphatically that, in Torfaen, it is delivering very real outcomes in the areas of employability, financial inclusion, digital inclusion and well-being? I note your commitment to phase out the Communities First programme, but, for me, the key part of your statement is where you say you will be establishing a new approach to meet the challenges of the future. It was with that in mind that I wanted to ask you a few questions.Of course an emphasis on employability is very welcome, but do you also recognise that in some communities, particularly our most deprived communities, those communities often face so many significant barriers to employability that they often really need the softer approaches that Communities First has been so good at fostering. Can I ask about how you would see the future looking in terms of the interconnectedness, which undoubtedly exists in Torfaen, between Communities First, Families First and Flying Start? We wouldn’t want to see any of the very significant contributions that Communities First make to those programmes being lost. In Torfaen, we take a single-plan approach to these grants so they’re all planned as a unified whole. How will you ensure that that doesn’t jeopardise the vital work in this area?On welfare reform, I’ve seen Communities First as being a very important part of making sure that we are actually resilient through these very difficult years of welfare reform. How will you ensure—also linked to what Bethan Jenkins said—that that work is not lost?Finally, your statement alludes to engaging with internal and external stakeholders on our future approach. Can you say a little more, please, about exactly how that consultation will take place and what the deadline is likely to be? Thank you.

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank the Member. Can I also pay tribute to many staff members in Communities First areas right across Wales who do a fantastic job in changing and creating a resilient community? I don’t doubt the work and intention of those, but we are in a conversation space. We want to talk to Communities First units about what the future looks like for these clusters and how they are shaping. The Member has championed her Communities First area for a long time, and I’m again grateful for her prompts in regarding and recognising the staff who work there.In regard to the future, I see Families First and Flying Start and the flexibility approach—and the Member’s right, particularly in her authority, about the flexibility between programmes there. I think there is much more opportunity and the Member is right to say about the softer interventions—I see that part of the work of Flying Start or Families First will need to get into that space. Alongside the Lift programme and Communities for Work, how can we support people to get into the market and therefore their ability to access the childcare pledge that we’ll be doing for working parents? This is a jigsaw of interventions that we have to join up with a very clear picture and I’m conscious of the consultation process, which we will start today, in terms of engagement. The first cluster meeting is in the next two weeks, I think it will be, and my team are already starting to talk to people on the phone this afternoon regarding what comes next.In terms of not just Communities First staff and the workforce around that, I want to talk to communities. I want to engage people in their own communities to understand what they need as well. So, rather than a top-down approach of Government telling communities what we think they should have, what do the communities think that they should have? That’s something that I’ve got my team working on. We’ll be doing some digital—what’s the word? [Interruption.] Consultation is the word—and that will be starting very shortly. We just need to get that up and running on the internet for people to engage with us.

Thank you very much. Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’ve taken some flak in this Chamber, particularly from Members opposite, in the past for suggesting that Communities First was not effective and not working as it should. That was borne out of the experience of living in a Communities First community myself. I’m not going to welcome the statement as such, however, as I’m not clear yet what the national anti-poverty strategy now is. But can I say to the Minister that £300 million has been spent on Communities First areas? And £100 million has been spent since the 2011 Wales Audit Office report that said it wasn’t working and wasn’t effective at tackling the main aim, which was economic deprivation in those communities. That’s borne out by the fact that the original communities in Communities First in 2001 are still the 100 most deprived communities in Wales. So, taken as that, it hasn’t been effective. Having said that, there have been lots of soft measures that I’ve seen working effectively in bringing communities together and in working to enhance people’s confidence. So, we don’t want to lose that either.But my main question to the Minister now is: how is he going to ensure that this new programme, or series of programmes, doesn’t reinvent the wheel, but actually builds on what we have and what is already effective? Can I suggest to him that he listens to the wise words of John Griffiths, because what we have and what is already effective is where community schools get really involved in their communities? The best example I’ve seen of that is Pembroke Dock Community School in my region, in a Communities First area, which really integrates everything together. That is the model for the future. I recommend that he goes and sees it with Kirsty Williams if she hasn’t—[Interruption.]. She’s already been. I’ve certainly been several times. It’s a wonderful example of how this can be pursued. And rather than reinvent the wheel, rather than talk about child zones or whatever it may be, just think again: we have the schools, we have the ability, through schools, to work across ward boundaries and to work directly with families. That’s the best way forward. Give the money to Kirsty Williams. I’m sure she knows how to spend it [Laughter.]

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank the Member for his contribution. It will be no surprise that I don’t agree with him on all he said; I do think that the interventions of Communities First have worked in some areas and worked very well in some areas, and Lynne Neagle and her colleagues have alluded to that. I do agree with him that the issue around the school and space is something we need to concentrate more on. So, Kirsty and I are working very closely around the childcare pledge and other actions where we know that, if we can get the right interventions for young people, it will save us, longer term, in tackling the issues of disorganised families, and the ACE programme and the child zones will support that as well. So, we’re going to have some very high-intensity areas of doing some work there.I declare an interest: my wife works in a school in north Wales and they’ve just received a school of excellence report from the inspectors. I visited there a couple of weeks back to take some paintings that I was doing over the weekend for them, but also to see how the school operates. I absolutely agree with the Member: if the school can change the way young people feel about themselves—confidence and encouragement—they can take that out as well. I think that, while Kirsty Williams doesn’t need any help looking for my finances in the budget, I’m delighted to be able to work with her to make sure that we get the best value for money with both our interventions. That also relates to not just Kirsty, but all Cabinet colleagues, too.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Firstly, I’d just like to welcome your emphasis on the importance of the north and south Wales metro in ensuring that isolated communities are able to take up the job and training opportunities and that if they’re not connected, they simply can’t get there. So, I look forward also to your Better Jobs, Closer to Home project, because I know that in many isolated communities, there’s an in-built resistance to going too far afield.I very much appreciate your commitment to tackling the messages we get from the analysis of adverse childhood experiences and the long-standing damage that it does to children. We have to bear in mind that the two most common adverse child experiences are verbal abuse and parental separation. Obviously, the root cause of this is often that people have children before they become adults themselves. So, there’s obviously some work to be done there to ensure that people understand just how difficult, challenging and lifelong it is to have a baby.But I want to pick up on something—. Whilst I agree with John Griffiths and Simon Thomas about the importance of having all our schools being community focused, like Llanedeyrn Primary School in my constituency, as well as Pembroke Dock, this misses the point, which is, if we look at the EPPI-Centre evidence, which is the biggest longitudinal study that’s ever been done on childhood outcomes, we know that the die is cast by the time the child is two. So, we cannot rely on schools to meet this need. Therefore, I’d like to know a bit more about what can be done. We know that the most effective way of breaking that link is integrated, high-quality childcare.I know that your emphasis in your department is on delivering the free childcare for three and four-year-olds of working parents. We do have a particular job here, which is partly being done by Flying Start but only within certain postcodes, and that is to ensure that we both meet the needs of those children and are delivering that parental support and family education. So, I’d like to know a little bit more about the community learning centres, and these child zones for Wales, as to how we can start to ensure that the very poorest children who are most at risk of adverse childhood experiences are getting that high-quality childcare to help them get that best start in life that we expect for all our children.

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank the Member for her support and the comprehensive question she raises. As I said in my statement, the Communities First programme is one programme and we must rely on other aspects of what Government interventions do—what Government, local government, third sector organisations bring to our communities—and build resilience around that. We are challenged financially—all aspects of Government and Government tiers—and we have to make sure that when we make these interventions, we make clever interventions based on the evidence presented by many fields. One particular work that I know the Member is familiar with is around Public Health Wales, around ACEs. For people who haven’t seen that programme, I would urge them to do so and realise that that is why we’re taking this step to make early intervention and prevention one of our key planks for intervention for our young people. We’ve seen the devastation that can happen when you start stacking ACEs for the long term. We’ve done some work with the youth justice board and I was incredibly surprised—. Actually, the Member’s right: it is very difficult to tackle the end part of that—the issue of reoffending. When we did some modelling of the young person, actually we looked back at their lifestyle and they had four or five ACEs, which we knew, if we started to tackle those issues around alcohol or substance misuse or incarceration, then, actually, the end bit sorted itself out. So, that’s what we’re going to be doing with people and families, and that’s partly the issue around child zones, about how we get all of the ages—it is to wrap around the child and the family, to see if we can make these clever interventions. There is a great pilot of the 1,000-day programme, which is operating in Wales already. We can learn a lot from that. It’s about that, before the child is born, we know that those first two years are important, and what it is that we need to do at that stage.The issue of childcare is something that we are working towards. I’m hoping that, towards the autumn of next year, we’ll start to introduce a very complex scheme of childcare and working, and how that fits in with the school setting as well, so that we have 30 hours of care for young people, which is appropriate and of quality. That’s a meeting that we held actually this morning, with a cross-ministerial discussion about how we start that programme. But this is about building a resilient community with all of our tools rather than one. That’s why I’m grateful for the ability to share with the Chamber today the vision and options for all of us to come together with all of these pieces of the jigsaw to make sure that we have a good future for our young people, driving forward.

Dawn Bowden AC: I think I agree with much of what’s been said by many of my colleagues, so I don’t want to repeat that and prolong it—

Just a question, please.

Dawn Bowden AC: I’m going to do that. What I wanted to say, however, is that I think that we do need to recognise that anti-poverty strategies have been at the forefront of Welsh Government policy for many years. In my own constituency, in common with many other constituencies whose representatives have spoken today, we’ve seen incredible work done on a daily basis—on a daily basis—around social community, digital inclusion, dealing with ex-offenders, tackling isolation, developing parenting skills, assisting with long-term unemployment. We could probably go on and on. So, an incredible amount of work is done. Therefore, I do welcome, Cabinet Secretary, the statement that you have made today, because I think that the initiatives that you have announced today, particularly the focus on ensuring positive outcomes, do take us into that direction that continues the work that we’ve already seen, and ensures that the measures that we’ve got to tackle poverty should underpin all of the work that the Welsh Government does going forward.However, my question is around whether the Minister can tell us whether the anti-poverty priorities and programmes in many of our most deprived areas, most of which, or a lot of which, are delivered by Communities First, will be followed through with the new strategy, and, if so, how those transitional arrangements will apply, and whether he has given some thought to how we can retain the skills of the people that have so successfully delivered Communities First in some of our most deprived areas—an asset that I’m sure he wouldn’t want to lose any more than I would.

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank the Member for her questions. Can I say that the anti-poverty strategy and the children’s anti-poverty strategy are still alive and kicking? That document is still there and we still work towards that. I met with Ken Skates about how do we refresh that and start to think about the new interventions that we have. As I said earlier, Communities First is just one of a suite of tools and intervention programmes that we can deliver on. I am still committed to working with the fantastic workforce within the Communities First areas. That’s where the discussion will start about how do we start to frame what the future looks like in terms of delivery of the many programmes that the Member talked about. What we cannot do is turn our backs on communities, but we must help them grow out of poverty and not ensure that we sanction communities to poverty for life. We’ve got to do something different, and the intervention techniques that we are talking about here are about giving personal resilience to young people to grow. This is, I think, very brave politically, because a lot of this stuff is generational. We’ll probably not see some of the effects of our early interventions growing for 10 years or so. But we must start now, and we must make that change and be brave about this, because, if we don’t, this is about a short-term political win. The fact is it’s changing our communities for the better for the future, and that’s what this new programme, I believe, will do.

Thank you. Finally, then, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’m just after a bit more clarity, Cabinet Secretary, around your proposed children’s zones for Wales. Are they geographical zones? Will they be following the footprint of Communities First areas or Flying Start? Because you also say in your statement that you’re not convinced that continuing to focus on 52 small areas is the most effective way to deliver for Wales. Now, you’ll be as aware as I am that there are children outside of those areas facing poverty and adverse childhood experiences as well, so maybe a bit of clarity would be appreciated.

Carl Sargeant AC: Yes, I’m very happy to do so. It’s a really useful question. In terms of the children’s zones, we are offering statements of intent from local authorities now to come forward with their ideas in terms of how they would like to implement them. Indeed, I think I’m right in saying that Anglesey have already indicated about an ACE-free island, which is quite an impressive challenge for them to undertake. I think it’s ambitious, but there’s nothing wrong with ambition. We should help them to move towards that. I think we should be starting to think about the approach that Simon Thomas and John Griffiths talked about, so, children’s zones around schools and school areas, to try to see if we can get underneath that. There’s a great example of a school in Washington that did this. It turned a school completely around—a very dysfunctional school—and they concentrated on the ACE approach to intervention and turned this around into a high-performing school. So, it does work. But, at the moment, pilot schemes—lots of flexibility to see what works and what doesn’t work. I think I need to be brave enough to say, ‘Well, we’ll give that a go, and, if it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work.’ But I’ll take the political flak for that, for doing something for the right reason, as opposed to for not trying some of these. We’ve got to try these in rural and urban settings and see what we can do in terms of scale as well. So, it’s a lot to work on, but we are offering local authorities flexibility to understand their communities better and know what they need.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

5. 4. Statement: EU Funding

The next item on our agenda, then, is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government on EU funding. I call on Mark Drakeford to introduce the statement.

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you for this opportunity to provide Members with an update on the European structural fund programmes. The implications for Wales of leaving the European Union have been regularly rehearsed in this Chamber since 23 June. Today, I will focus instead on the progress made in deploying funds already secured, particularly in the 2014-2020 round, where Wales’s programmes were the first to be approved in the UK, and amongst the first in Europe. Consistent progress has been made since the programmes were launched in December 2014, investing EU funds in schemes across the country. Those schemes are clearly linked to regional needs and growth opportunities, and they demonstrate the potential to generate significant economic, social and environmental benefits across Wales. EU funds, from which our businesses, communities and people have benefited significantly for more than a decade, have helped to shape the development of Wales’s economic fortunes and to lay the foundations for more sustainable economic prosperity.Felly y mae, Ddirprwy Lywydd, ers y flwyddyn 2000, ac er gwaethaf y cyfnod economaidd anodd yn ddiweddar, mae cyllid yr Undeb Ewropeaidd wedi cyfrannu at gynnydd nodedig mewn cyfraddau cyflogaeth, a gwelwyd y gwelliannau mwyaf yn rhanbarthau’r gorllewin a’r Cymoedd, i fyny o 64.6 y cant yn y flwyddyn 2000 i 70.7 y cant ym mis Mehefin eleni.Yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw, cynyddodd y ganran yn y dwyrain o 71.7 y cant i 72.4 y cant.Gostyngodd lefelau anweithgarwch economaidd yn y gorllewin a'r Cymoedd yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw o 30.8 y cant i 25.2 y cant.Ers 2004, mae lefelau sgiliau ledled Cymru wedi gwella, wrth i gyfran yr oedolion o oedran gweithio heb unrhyw gymwysterau ostwng o 17 y cant i 9.5 y cant.Ar yr un pryd, mae’r buddsoddiad mewn ymchwil ac arloesedd wedi mwy na dyblu ac mae'r bwlch rhwng gwerth ychwanegol gros y gorllewin a'r Cymoedd a chyfartaledd y DU wedi lleihau.Ers y flwyddyn 2007, mae prosiectau cronfeydd strwythurol yr UE ar eu pennau eu hunain wedi helpu bron i 73,000 o bobl i gael gwaith, wedi helpu dros 234,000 o bobl i ennill cymwysterau, wedi cefnogi bron i 12,000 o fusnesau newydd i ddechau, ac wedi helpu i greu rhyw 37,000 o swyddi.Mae'r cyflawniadau hyn, Ddirprwy Lywydd, yn dangos yn glir yr effaith gadarnhaol y mae arian yr UE eisoes wedi ei chael ar gymunedau, pobl a busnesau ledled Cymru.Yr wythnos diwethaf, croesawodd y Prif Weinidog ymrwymiad pellach Llywodraeth y DU i sicrhau cyllid ar gyfer pob un o gynlluniau’r cronfeydd strwythurol Ewropeaidd a’r cronfeydd buddsoddi a gymeradwywyd cyn i'r DU adael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd.Mae'r gwarantu hwn ynddo’i hun yn cydnabod pa mor bwysig yw arian yr UE i Gymru er mwyn mynd i'r afael gwahaniaethau economaidd a chymdeithasol.Mae’n parhau i fod yn wir, fodd bynnag, bod ein gallu i gyflawni rhaglenni 2014-20 yn llawn fel y bwriadwyd yn wreiddiol, ac yn unol â'n cytundebau â'r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd, yn dal i fod yn ddibynnol iawn ar amserlen Llywodraeth y DU ar gyfer gadael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Hyd yn hyn, rydym eisoes wedi buddsoddi £830 miliwn o gronfeydd strwythurol yn y rhaglenni—sef tua 43 y cant o gyfanswm y dyraniad ar gyfer y cyfnod 2014-2020—ac mae hynny'n ein rhoi ni ar y blaen o’i gymharu â pherfformiad rhanbarthau eraill y DU.Ein blaenoriaeth yw parhau i wneud penderfyniadau ariannu cyn gynted ag y gallwn, er mwyn manteisio i’r eithaf ar ein dyraniad cyllid a sicrhau bod gweithgareddau yn dechrau cyn gynted ag sy’n bosibl, a byddaf yn gwneud y neges hon yn glir ac yn trafod y ffordd hon o wneud busnes â rhanddeiliaid a phartneriaid cyflawni yn y digwyddiad blynyddol i rannu gwybodaeth am gronfa’r UE, a fydd yn cael ei gynnal yng Nghaerdydd yr wythnos nesaf.Ddirprwy Lywydd, rwyf am ei gwneud yn glir bod hon yn ymdrech gan Lywodraeth Cymru yn ei chyfanrwydd a fydd yn cynnwys yr holl Weinidogion ac Ysgrifenyddion y Cabinet. Bythefnos yn ôl, roeddwn i’n gallu cyhoeddi £4.7 miliwn ar gyfer y prosiect OPUS sy’n gweithio gyda phobl ifanc, ac £11.9 miliwn i ddatblygu’r prosiect SEACAMS hynod lwyddiannus, a bydd y ddau yn cael eu cynnal yn y gogledd.Heddiw, bu’n bleser gennyf gyhoeddi £850,000 ychwanegol o gyllid yr Undeb Ewropeaidd i Brifysgol Abertawe i gefnogi rhagor o raddau Meistr ymchwil a doethuriaethau mewn peirianneg i fyfyrwyr a fydd yn gweithio ochr yn ochr â chwmnïau, gan gynnwys Tata Steel.Yr wythnos diwethaf, roedd fy nghyd-Aelod, Jane Hutt yn Cross Hands yn Sir Gaerfyrddin yn cyhoeddi £2.3 miliwn o gyllid yr UE ar gyfer y rhaglen twf busnesau cymdeithasol, gwerth £4 miliwn, gan gynnig cymorth ariannol o hyd at £150,000 i fusnesau cymdeithasol ledled Cymru.Bydd rhagor o gyhoeddiadau cyllido gan Weinidogion eraill yn y dyddiau, wythnosau, a misoedd sydd i ddod.Drwy’r ymdrechion cyfunol hyn ac ymrwymiad aruthrol ein partneriaid, rydym yn gobeithio rhoi cytundebau ar waith sy'n cwmpasu tua 60 y cant o'n holl gyllid erbyn i Lywodraeth y DU wneud ei datganiad yr hydref ym mis Tachwedd.Byddwn yn gwneud hyn, Ddirprwy Lywydd, ar sail cadarnhad gan Drysorlys y DU, yn unol â’r setliad datganoli, mai mater i Lywodraeth Cymru fydd parhau i bennu sut i wario cyllid yr UE yng Nghymru, a byddwn yn gwneud hyn yn unol ag amcanion a thargedau a gynlluniwyd yn ein rhaglen.Datblygwyd y rhaglenni hyn, ac maent yn cael eu gweithredu a'u monitro, mewn partneriaeth rhwng Llywodraeth Cymru a sefydliadau ar draws y sector preifat, y trydydd sector a'r sector cyhoeddus. Bu'r dull partneriaeth hwn yn hanfodol i lwyddiant ein rhaglenni a bydd yn parhau i fod yn nodwedd gref o sut yr ydym yn gwneud busnes yma yng Nghymru.Bydd y pwyllgor monitro rhaglenni ar gyfer y cronfeydd strwythurol a’r cronfeydd buddsoddi yn arbennig, yn parhau i chwarae rhan bwysig wrth i ni sicrhau bod cronfeydd yr UE yn cael yr effaith fwyaf.Bydd y Pwyllgor Monitro Rhaglenni hefyd yn helpu i lywio strategaeth Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer sicrhau’r canlyniadau gorau posibl i Gymru wrth i ni baratoi ar gyfer gadael yr UE.Rwyf wedi bod, felly, yn arbennig o falch o weld bod Julie Morgan wedi'i phenodi gan y Prif Weinidog yn gadeirydd newydd ar y Pwyllgor Monitro Rhaglenni ac y bydd yn cadeirio ei chyfarfod cyntaf yn ddiweddarach eleni. Dymunaf bob llwyddiant i Julie yn y swydd newydd bwysig iawn hon ac edrychaf ymlaen at weithio'n agos â hi.I gloi, Ddirprwy Lywydd, mae gan Gymru hanes cryf o ran cyllid Ewropeaidd a chyflawni rhaglenni rhanbarthol drwy bartneriaethau ymrwymedig ac effeithiol.Ein blaenoriaeth yn awr yw adeiladu ar y cyflawniadau hynny yn fwy fyth i sicrhau bod buddsoddiadau yr UE yn parhau i gael effaith gadarnhaol ar fywydau ein cyd-ddinasyddion, i wneud hynny i'r graddau mwyaf posibl, ac am y cyfnod cyfan y mae’r cyllid ar gael.Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Adam Price AC: I obviously welcome the Cabinet Secretary’s statement, but I have to take issue with him that the course of this period from 2000 to 2014 has been somehow an unalloyed economic success for those of us who live in west Wales and the Valleys. He was very selective in the figures that he quoted. Because we’re talking about a European programme, if we look at where west Wales and the Valleys are in relation to the whole of the European Union, they’ve gone down in terms of GVA per capita: 73 per cent of the EU 27 income per capita in 2000, 69 per cent for 2014, the latest year for which statistics are available. We compare that with Poland, 47 per cent at the beginning of this period, now up to 68 per cent; Saxony, 79 per cent rising to 94 per cent—other areas that have benefitted and used the European structural funds, I have to say, far more strategically and successfully than this Government over the course of this period.I’ve a number of particular questions to him. Obviously, we’re living in a time of economic turbulence. What effect does the volatility of the exchange rate have on the amount of allocation available? I note in the rural development plan that the planning exchange rate has been revised, but it seems to have been revised the wrong way in terms of the exchange rate movement. The co-financing rate as well in the rural development plan has been revised downwards—the local Welsh UK contribution—from 57 per cent to 47 per cent. I note that First Ministers have lost their heads in this Chamber before as a result of additionality questions, so I’d like him to say if that co-financing rate change also applies more widely to the structural funds.On WEFO, surely the important thing now is to get the money committed and programmes all set up, because the real danger—the gravest danger of all—is that we lose funds and funds are de-committed because we do not change the decision-making pace, which is still, unfortunately, grinding very slow, as far as I can see, in WEFO.Finally, on the programme monitoring committee, is it true that the programme monitoring committee is now going to meet less often? I heard ‘longer meetings’, but surely, shorter meetings more often would actually meet the challenge of the times that we’re facing over the course of the next two and a half years as we’re leaving the European Union. While I admire Julie Morgan, surely what we need is not a pan-Welsh Government approach to European structural funds, but a pan-Wales approach. Why was the opportunity not taken to actually appoint a member of an opposition party to chair that important committee, because surely, on this issue, we should be working together across Wales—[Interruption.] Why not release them? Absolutely. It’s always been a Labour Member. Why was the Chair of the programme monitoring committee subject to Cabinet collective responsibility, when, the last time I checked, they’re not even in the Cabinet?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for those questions. It was never a claim that I made in my statement that European funds have been, to quote the Member, an unalloyed success. My case was that, in the difficult times that we have faced, European funding has been a fundamental element in bringing about some very significant improvements. If the Member thought that I was selective in my examples, then I’m afraid he will have wanted to have looked through this own list of particular examples that he chose to highlight this afternoon.He went to raise a series of important points. Of course, the exchange rate—trying to keep abreast of changes in the exchange rate is a particular challenge at the moment for all our European funding programmes. Part of WEFO, and other direct links with the Commission, is about making sure that we try to have planning rates, co-financing rates and intervention rates that are sensible and do the very best they can from a Welsh point of view. But it is a rapidly moving picture and the decisions are not entirely in the hands of Wales. They are agreed with the Commission as those planning rates change. As far as WEFO is concerned, I entirely agree that the core task for all of us involved in this in Wales is to make sure that money is committed, but more than committed—that programmes deliver on the ground, so that funding can be rapidly drawn down for important purposes here in Wales.I don’t think it is fair to characterise the decision-making pace as being grindingly slow. Forty three per cent of all structural funds are already committed. That will rise to 60 per cent by 23 November, and that demonstrates the way in which, with our partners, we have done our best to accelerate the approval of important programmes. I do say this, and I’ve said it to WEFO: I want an accelerated pace of approving programmes that will make a real difference. I will not be willing to think of approving programmes simply to draw down the money. The programmes have to be programmes that we would agree will make the difference we need them to make in Wales.I do understand that, at its last meeting, the programme monitoring committee discussed the best way of organising its time, and the best way of working. It is for them entirely to do that. I understand there was a possibility of fewer but longer meetings. As I understand it, that was one of a number of suggestions, and not necessarily the one that gathered the largest amount of support.

Nick Ramsay AC: Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement today? Cabinet Secretary, you cite improvements in employment rates since 2000 in your statement as a major success of structural funds. I would agree that they have played their part, along with other elements. I would suggest UK Government economic policy, over the last few years, has also played a part, along with those structural funds. Do you recognise, though, that, as Adam Price said in his remarks earlier, whilst the unemployment rates of west Wales and the Valleys have, thankfully, improved, that region still has an unacceptably low level of gross value added, relative to the rest of the UK? It’s a situation that has not been improved as much as it should have been after consecutive rounds of structural funding, and it’s certainly not fulfilling the prophecy of one Rhodri Morgan, former First Minister, who predicted that one round of structural funds would be enough, and that we would have a more sustainable economy across Wales in the future.Can I ask you how are you intending to use the remaining EU funds to develop a more sustainable local economy that can better support itself in west Wales and the Valleys, and, indeed, across the rest of the supported areas? Along with you, I welcome the UK Government’s firm commitment to guarantee expenditure for all European structural and investment funds approved prior to the UK leaving the EU. What discussions have you had with the UK Government about the nature of that guarantee, most importantly the length of it? Now, I appreciate, of course, that this ball, in many ways, is not in your court—it is with the UK Government. But I think we all agree it would be very helpful if we could have some indication, at the earliest opportunity, of the type of support that will, ultimately, be replacing EU funds when we leave, in terms of a UK solution.I welcome the fact that the UK Treasury have confirmed that the Welsh Government will continue to determine how EU funds are spent in Wales. It would have been very odd if this had not been the case. Only recently, we had a debate on the programme for government here, and we spoke about the importance of delivery, so delivery, and maximising what we’ve got left of European funds, up until 2020, becomes very important.You mentioned monitoring. Can I congratulate Julie Morgan on her appointment to her new position on the Wales monitoring committee? I hope you have a little bit more luck that Jenny Rathbone did during her time in a similar position. It is not an easy job, Julie, but we do certainly recognise that it’s a job that has to be done.Can I echo Adam Price’s earlier comments that it would be good if this Assembly as a whole could have a little bit more of a hold on the scrutinising of the spend of structural funds? I heard the comments that were made about the reductions in meetings. Whether you have shorter meetings, longer meetings or more frequent meetings, I do think it would be helpful if this Assembly itself had more of a scrutinising role over what is going on in those meetings, because it is clearly a very important job that is being done, and will increase in importance as we move towards the end of this 2020 period. So, if you could tell us how you plan, or how you think we could improve scrutiny, and whether you’d be willing for us to do that here, that would be very helpful, although I do appreciate it is a Welsh Government committee, of course, and not an Assembly committee.Two very quick, final questions. Horizon 2020, Cabinet Secretary, is not the subject directly of today’s statement, but is nonetheless a very important aspect. When I was on the Finance Committee in the fourth Assembly, we looked at the spending that was involved in the Horizon 2020 programme. It would be good if we could have some clarity on how you see that going over the next couple of years.And, finally, when the Finance Committee looked at the funding opportunities, we thought there was a role for the championing of the Welsh creative sector, which I don’t think has been mentioned today. Could you tell us how you plan to use the remainder of this period of structural funds to better support the Welsh creative sector, which has a very important role to play in boosting and delivering for the Welsh economy?

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I’ll move straight into the questions that the Member raised. Our plans for using the remaining European funds that we have at our disposal during the 2014-20 programme will be by delivering the programme that was agreed at a UK level with the European Union. It involved learning the lessons from the 2007-13 round. It involved making sure that we have a proper mix of private, public and third sector partners and schemes on the table. It involved making sure that we focus on those people who are furthest away from the labour market, because that’s where the earlier programme showed that interventions derived the greatest value. I’m happy to say again that I welcomed the UK Government’s announcement that it would guarantee these structural funds for the whole of the 2014-20 period. That’s an important measure for boosting confidence amongst our partners. I discussed it with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury during my meeting with him on 28 September. We touched then in a very introductory way on how these sorts of funds will be deployed post membership of the European Union.Can I say from my perspective that it will be very important to make sure that, in our discussions with the UK Government, we set a number of important ground rules? First of all, competencies that are located with the National Assembly but have been exercised through the European Union, when we are no longer a member of the European Union, revert to this Assembly. They do not go to London and then get handed on. They are already devolved here and when we no longer exercise them through the European Union they return here for us to exercise them. It may well be sensible in some instances to re-pool some of those responsibilities so that we exercise them jointly within the United Kingdom. But that’s a decision for us to make rather than one to be presumed on our behalf. The European Union funding that we have in Wales is the only funding that we get that is based on the needs that we have in Wales and those needs are recognised through a rule book, which we sometimes regard as a bit sclerotic and difficult to navigate, but nevertheless there is a rule book and we are able to argue about or have an ability to draw down funding according to the rules. And we will need a rules-based system for the way that we discharge these responsibilities when they revert from the European Union in future. So, the Member is absolutely right to point to the need to have these sorts of discussions and to work those things out, because they will be very important in future.On PMC meetings, let me just say again: it’s not a matter for the Welsh Government at all as to how the PMC discharges its responsibilities. It’s a monitoring programme that is not set up at the behest of the Welsh Government. It is a requirement of structural funding as part of our agreement with the European Union. It operates, again, within that rule book. I’m very glad to be able to be making a statement today so that Members can ask questions and scrutinise the way in which these responsibilities are being discharged.The final points that Nick Ramsay asked were about Horizon 2020. It is covered by the same guarantee that the Chancellor announced a week or so ago. Wales does very well out of Horizon 2020. By June of this year, there had been 93 Welsh participations in Horizon 2020, drawing down £36 million worth of funding for research purposes in Wales. So, that guarantee is very welcome. The creative sector plays its part in a range of different European programmes and I’m sure that Members will have heard what was said about its importance in the remaining time that we have to make use of those funds.

Neil Hamilton AC: Like everybody else, I welcome the statement as far as it goes, which isn’t very far. I think there’s widespread agreement across the floor here and that the important questions have already been asked. I endorse what Adam Price said and what Nick Ramsay said. The statement is very self-congratulatory, of course, and expresses the extent to which these funds have helped shape the development of Wales’s economic fortunes, in the words of the statement. But, as I pointed out in questions to the First Minister today, these increases in employment have gone hand in hand with a relative falling away of wages compared with other parts of the United Kingdom. I was very interested to hear what Adam Price said about GVA compared with other parts of Europe that are in a similar condition to west Wales and the Valleys. It seems to me that this programme has not actually performed as well as it might have done.I welcome, of course, the fact that the United Kingdom Government has guaranteed the spending decisions that have been made and will be made by the Welsh Government in this funding period, and I certainly endorse what Mr Cabinet Secretary has just said about the reversion of competence to this Chamber and to the Welsh Government, following our leaving the EU, of various matters that currently are out of our hands. Obviously, for the time being, the spending decisions that have been made remain subject to EU rules, but we have to remember that it’s all British taxpayers’ money, fundamentally, even though it comes via the prism of the EU. Once we leave the EU, the opportunity will be ours and ours alone to decide on our priorities and to make our own rules as to how this money will be spent, subject, of course, to what the UK Government provides for us through the Barnett formula, which is something else that we need to revisit, I think, considering the relativities of income that I set out earlier on today, and which were mentioned by Adam Price.So, I don’t really have a great deal to add to what has been said already. As regards the programme monitoring committee, of course, I’m delighted to welcome Julie Morgan as the chair of it. As we see the stratospheric rise of another ex-First Lady across the Atlantic, who knows where her political career may go from here? Wales may have, in due course, a female First Minister and the sooner the better, I would say, in that respect.I think the statement was rather ungenerous in not paying tribute to Jenny Rathbone for her conscientious commitment to the role when she was the chairman of this committee, and I wonder whether that has anything to do with her statement that her sacking was the result of a culture at the top of the Welsh Government that doesn’t allow for rigorous debate or reflection on the best use of public funds.

Can we stick to the statement? Sorry. Can we stick to the statement, please? Can you question the Minister on the statement?

Neil Hamilton AC: Yes, well, this is the question. I’m asking—

No, I think we’ve had a bit of rhetoric from previous, so if we can come to questions on the statement, please, I would be grateful.

Neil Hamilton AC: So, I would like to underline the importance of what Adam Price said about including more Members from opposition parties in such functions. As I said earlier on in First Minister’s questions about the external advisory group in relation to the EU, it’s unfortunate that there isn’t a broader collection of people who are involved in giving that advice, and similarly in relation to this committee. ‘Keep your enemies close’, is what I would say, because then you will get more out of them.

Mark Drakeford AC: I think I heard two questions in the middle of that, Dirprwy Lywydd. Let me confirm for the Member: he asked whether spending decisions that are made while we remain within the European Union are to be made in a way that is consistent with the legal obligations that membership provides; the answer to that is ‘yes’. He then asked whether future regional policy outside the European Union would give us a greater freedom of decision making to design that policy here in Wales; the answer to that is ‘yes’, as well.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Can I welcome the statement and welcome the appointment of my colleague Julie Morgan to this important position? Could I simply note that, whilst we might disagree at the rate of progress, we cannot ignore the fact that in this generation, the communities that Adam and I represent were thrown into the seven pits of hell, down to the deepest in terms of economic and social ills, and we had to pull ourselves up from that, but the direction of travel is the right direction of travel? I’m pleased to see the commitment of funds, with up to 43 per cent of structural funds now allocated, and the further progress that will be made very shortly. I’ve seen my own constituency benefiting in terms of Jobs Growth Wales, apprenticeship schemes with the local Bridgend College and local employers, and direct investment in safeguarding and growing employment within my community. But, I note that the Cabinet Secretary says, in the middle of his statement,‘It remains the case, however, that our ability fully to deliver the 2014-2020 programmes as originally planned and in line with our agreements with the European Commission, is still hugely dependent on the UK Government’s timescale for leaving the EU.’And as we know, Deputy Presiding Officer, that is clouded, still, in confusion. So, could I say to the Cabinet Secretary: isn’t this absolutely the imperative, that the UK Government now needs to listen to employers, colleges, Welsh Government and the people of Wales in shaping both the speed and the shape of the exit from the European Union? That is an imperative, otherwise we, the people who are most dependent on this as a contribution to our economic and social regeneration, will be the ones worst affected by decisions at the other end of the M4.

Mark Drakeford AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, can I say how much I agree with both points that the Member made? I emphasise in my statement the timescale for leaving and the importance of that in relation to the current round of structural funds, but the Member emphasises not simply the speed but the shape of that exit—the nature of it. And while we remain in close dialogue with the United Kingdom Government to make sure that Wales’s interests are fully understood and articulated to them, it also remains the case that there is no secret plan in the drawer that is slowly being revealed to us. We continue to deal with a Westminster and Whitehall end where the infighting, the lack of clarity, the impossibility, it seems, of trying to arrive at a single perspective, which would govern the speed, scale and nature of exit, remains hugely problematic.

Nathan Gill AC: Cabinet Secretary, will you finally recognise that there is no such thing as EU funding? It is, and always has been, UK taxpayers’ money. If the British taxpayer was to give the EU this £10 note, we would get back this £5 note. It is not, and never has been, EU money. Would you please recognise that?Also, you said in your statement that the UK Government recognises how important EU funds are to Wales in addressing economic and social disparity. Actually, I think that we all recognise how much there needs to be an immediate review of the Barnett formula to establish a fairer and more robust funding model for Wales, to ensure it is not left behind from the impending Brexit dividend. So, let’s not just have Brexit for breakfast, let’s have it for lunch and dinner, too. So, will you agree with me that a review of the Barnett formula is needed to ensure a longer lasting funding solution to Wales’s needs?

Mark Drakeford AC: Let me begin by disagreeing with Nathan Gill. When I pay my subscription to Glamorgan County Cricket Club every year, I don’t then go around saying every time I go there, ‘By the way, that’s my money, not yours.’ It becomes Glamorgan County Cricket Club’s money, which they use on my entertainment. [Interruption.] Or not, as the case may be. [Laughter.]As for his second point, as to whether or not leaving the European Union and the funding changes that brings about ought to lead to a wider review of the way in which funding flows to Wales, including the Barnett formula, well, there I do agree with him.

Thank you very much. I’ve no more speakers; thank you.

6. 5. Statement: ‘Together for Mental Health’

We move on to item 5, which is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport, entitled ‘Together for Mental Health’. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport, Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. In July, Members will recall that I presented the Welsh Government’s draft of the second delivery plan in support of our 10-year cross-government strategy, ‘Together for Mental Health’. I launched the finalised delivery plan yesterday to coincide with World Mental Health Day.The 2016-19 delivery plan sets out 10 priority areas for service improvement, including examples of cross–working with areas such as housing and education, which demonstrates how we should be joined up in our delivery. It also demonstrates how we will continue to drive the implementation of the strategy. It sets out clear actions and performance measures to ensure delivery, and the detail has been informed by both the Plenary debate we held in July and the extensive consultation with service users and voluntary sector agencies, as well as a wide range of partners, agencies and stakeholders.Since the launch of ‘Together for Mental Health’ in 2012, there has been significant progress across a range of key areas, including the implementation of the Mental Health (Wales) Measure 2010. However, more can and needs to be done so we can make a sustained difference to people whose lives are affected by mental health problems.Our debate in July emphasised areas that are important to all of us: building resilience in individuals and communities to tackle poor mental health when it occurs; improved support for our young people, particularly those at risk of adverse childhood experiences; and ensuring that services are provided in a safe, timely and effective way, with dignity and respect for service users.This new plan will also contribute to the delivery of some key objectives laid down in the healthy and active section of the programme for government, including sustained work on tackling stigma and discrimination, introducing a new well-being bond in Wales, aimed at improving both physical and mental health, and the piloting of a social prescription scheme to improve the availability of sources of support within the community. We’ve continued to spend more on mental health services than on any other part of NHS Wales and funding increased to over £600 million in this year. Over the last two financial years, we’ve announced over £22 million of new funding for a range of new provision across all ages. We expect that to further improve accessibility to services and outcomes for service users.Since the implementation of the groundbreaking legislation, the mental health Measure, there have been real improvements to the care and support that people receive. Central to the delivery of the Measure has been a co-productive approach, because we place the needs and the voice of service users at the heart of both service design and care and treatment planning.Since April 2013, over 100,000 people have been assessed by local primary mental health support services established under the Measure. Over half of those have gone on to receive treatment in those services. Waiting times for assessment and treatment in primary care have continued to improve and that, of course, must be sustained.Significant steps have been taken to improve the provision of psychological therapies in Wales, with an additional investment of £3 million in adult and children’s services last year and another £1.15 million this year focusing on in-patient services. We expect further improvement in talking therapies through this delivery plan period, and again that commitment is reinforced in ‘Taking Wales Forward’.In relation to the workplace, as a Government we support businesses and organisations to recognise that mental ill health is not necessarily a barrier to effective working. Providing employment and maintaining people in good jobs is a positive way of supporting individuals who are recovering from mental health problems. Improving the mental health and well-being of staff is a key element of the Welsh Government’s Healthy Working Wales awards. Our corporate health standard and small workplace health awards aim to improve the health and well-being of the working-age population and reduce the mental, physical and financial burdens associated with sickness absence.This delivery plan also identifies a priority area that aims to ensure children and young people with mental health problems get better sooner. We’re working and supporting the NHS ‘Together for Children and Young People’ programme, which is working with partners across agencies, not just health, to consider how best to meet the emotional and mental health needs of our young people. When young people need more specialist mental health services, we’re investing almost £8 million annually in specialist child and adolescent mental health services to help improve timely access.The delivery plan also includes goals to help ensure groups at a higher risk of mental health issues receive the care that they need. We recognise that pregnancy and early parenthood are particularly challenging times, and we are offering additional support to families. So, we’ll ensure that parents have access to the information and support they need, alongside the £1.5 million we are investing in community perinatal mental health services across Wales.This Welsh Government remains committed to providing support to people in Wales with dementia and their families. Last year, we announced a number of areas of priority work and the steps we would take to support each of these. This includes work on dementia risk reduction, increasing public awareness, improving diagnosis rates and ensuring that support is available to those affected by the illness. Investment made over the last two years is already showing some progress in this important area. In the delivery plan, we recommit to developing a dementia strategic plan to ensure the necessary drive and focus needed on this agenda. Engagement with experts in the field, with carers, with people living with dementia themselves, is under way. I expect that work to be completed so we can formally consult on the dementia plan in December this year.The delivery plan sets out what the Welsh Government, the broader public sector, voluntary organisations and business can do to achieve our shared aims over the next three years. We’ve seen the third sector taking an ever more active role in the way mental health services are shaped and delivered in recent years, and help to ensure the ethos of co-production in service planning and delivery.The past three years have shown that while ‘Together for Mental Health’ is a challenging agenda, real progress is achievable. I trust that Members from all parties will recognise the achievements to date. This new delivery plan is ambitious, but by working in partnership, I believe we can continue to make progress over the next phase of delivery.

Thank you very much. There are a number of speakers who want to speak. This is a 30-minute debate, so can I ask for some brief contributions and some brief answers as well? Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. May I thank you for the statement and for the strategic plan that was published yesterday? I do recognise, certainly, the steps forward that have taken place since the launch of the plan in 2012, but the Cabinet Secretary himself has acknowledged just how much remains to be done, and I do look forward to the debate tomorrow afternoon in the Chamber, where we will have an opportunity to discuss some of the weaknesses—some fundamental weaknesses, indeed—in some areas of provision.I have three questions, first of all on carers. The statement doesn’t mention carers of those who have mental health issues, apart from saying that they will be included in the dementia strategy. Looking after a member of the family who has a mental health problem can also affect the mental health of the carer. So, what kind of support structures are going to be put in place, particularly taking into account that caring for someone with mental health problems does pose a very different set of challenges to caring for someone with a physical problem?Secondly, the statement doesn’t mention the staff needed in order to deliver improvements in services, namely the need for an increase in the number of therapists and also ensuring that there is adequate time available for continuous professional development. We know, for example, that many therapists work in the private sector, so what plans does the Welsh Government have to actually draw those people into the NHS, even if that’s only on a part-time basis, in order to enhance capacity?And thirdly, one of the very real problems, very often in terms of those who need emergency care to prevent self-harm or suicide is either that they are not known to the service or that they have somehow slipped through the net—that there haven’t been follow-up calls in order to ask why they didn’t they turn up for their appointments and so on. An audit of cases among teenagers recently showed that many of those who had committed suicide weren’t known to CAMHS or hadn’t been monitored, so it’s the exact problem I was mentioning earlier. Would the Cabinet Secretary except that the nature of the problems that some of these individuals face means that they don’t have the motivation to turn up for their appointments, particularly, possibly, appointments early in the morning if one of the side effects of the condition is a failure to actually motivate themselves to get up in the morning and so on? In that context, would the Cabinet Secretary accept that, very often, we need to be far more proactive in assisting these individuals who need our support?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the three questions. I’ll be happy to respond. I’ll take first your question about carers. In fact, of course, we talk about carers throughout the range of our different strategies and not just in this one too. They’re specifically mentioned in part of priority area 4, but that isn’t the only one of the 10 priority areas where carers are relevant. I would reference back to the fact that carers now have a statutory right to have their care and support needs assessed and met under the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. So, it isn’t just about seeing the strategy on its own and saying that carers aren’t mentioned enough, because we recognise that, throughout this, to treat the individual service user with dignity and respect, you also need to understand the context in which that care is being provided. The family and friends who are providing that informal or formalised care around them are part of that. So, their care and support needs are also part of what we need to take into account. So, I think that’s part of where we see this. It isn’t that carers have been forgotten—far from it.I’ll deal with the point you make about suicide, because, of course, we launched the second phase of ‘Talk to me 2: Suicide and Self Harm Prevention Strategy for Wales 2015-2020’ in July 2015, and it’s taking a more targeted approach than the previous strategy. So, in particular, we’re looking to identify particular groups of vulnerable people. So, for someone who isn’t attending appointments, there are risk points there that are actually raised. The challenge is someone who really isn’t known to the services—it’s really difficult. That’s really difficult to prevent. The challenge here is understanding those people who really are potentially vulnerable, who should be a higher priority and how to help to support those. That is explicitly part of the ‘Talk to me 2’ strategy. I was very pleased, yesterday, to have an opportunity to discuss that with Samaritans Wales, when I spoke at the launch of their impact report in Wales. There’s a really positive flow of work and we’re actually seeing suicides reducing in Wales, which is not a trend we’re seeing in every other part of the UK. But there’s no complacency about where we are and it’s why we’ve got a specific strategy in this area to be more proactive in understanding who is at risk.Finally, on your point about staff, there’s a fair point here about recognising who we need for the workforce of the future to actually achieve the objectives that we have, and a vision that I think people around this Chamber would buy into. It’s then about how we deliver it. But while I have discussed and set out the range of cash that we spend and the additional investment that we’ve made, the greatest call on that resource is actually wages. It’s money—and it’s staff that that money is procuring. So, when you see the step forward made in the NHS Wales veteran service, that’s because we’ve actually got more staff to provide the service and that’s why waiting times are significantly better than other parts of the UK that have a similar service. When we talk about CAMHS, almost all of that is going into staff, and that’s where we’re finally seeing waiting times reduced, because we’ve got the staff resource in place who are actually addressing the challenges within the service.

The Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Vaughan Gething AC: So, a lot is about having the right staff in place. We recognise that there are still gaps in terms of where we want to be. It’s one of the few challenged areas, for example, in public services, as we have them now, where money is tighter, but there’s still a call for more staff in the NHS in different specialities. Our challenge will always be how we match up what we need and what we want with the staff who are available and make sure that they’re working in the right model of care and seeing the right people at the right time.

Angela Burns AC: Minister, thank you for the statement today and for publishing the delivery plan yesterday on World Mental Health Day. I have a number of questions I just want to ask you about this. Going back to a question I asked the First Minister, in your statement, in the area where you have your three bullet points, you talk about emphasising the areas that are important to us and you particularly talk about building resilience in individuals and communities to tackle poor mental health and well-being when it occurs. You also go on to talk about the piloting of a social prescription scheme. I raised concerns this morning with the First Minister, so I’d like to ask you directly: can you tell us how much read-across there was between this mental health delivery plan and other Welsh Government Acts, particularly the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act? I think there are some tensions between this implementation plan and that Act, in terms of one consolidating and encouraging individuals to very much do things and be responsible for themselves, and yet the social prescription and the comment about individuals and communities talks very much about actually relying on your community and getting involved in your community. I cited one particular area, but it’s about where you get organisations or community groups that are being closed down under the social services Act, because people are being told to be empowered and to take charge themselves, and yet this mental health delivery plan is all about how we integrate people with mental health, how we build them into communities and how we sustain and support them. So, I would just like to understand the read-across between different Government objectives.Moving swiftly on, a very brief question: I think the Welsh Government’s Healthy Working Wales awards are an absolutely excellent idea. I just wanted to understand if you were able to offer guidance and mentoring funds to the small workplaces to ensure that the mental health stigma really is removed, because it sounds like a great idea, but we need to bring small organisations as well as large corporates with us.I finally want to turn to the area of child and adolescent mental health services. I really welcome the fact that you say here,‘When young people need more specialist mental health services, we are investing almost £8 million annually in specialist CAMHS’.You also talk about the fact that you are putting together a plan that’s working with partners across agencies to best consider how to meet the emotional and mental health requirements of young people. CAMHS is a great service. I’m glad that you’re putting more money into it, but the problem is that there’s such a gap between the services that can be offered by local government, by partner organisations and by health boards and the kinds of services or conditions that a young person needs to have in order to access CAMHS. First Minister—. I keep calling you ‘First Minister’. I must have a prescience about this. [Interruption.] It is. [Laughter.] Cabinet Secretary, can you confirm or give an opinion as to whether or not you think that this is enough to try to close that gap, because young people need to have an incredibly wide range of conditions in order to be able to access CAMHS? What is happening is that a great many young people with suicidal tendencies, who are self-harming or have multiple conditions or multiple disabilities with conditions are being denied access to CAMHS because they don’t fit those strict criteria. I cannot see in the mental health implementation plan that you’ll be able to actually close that gap that well.Finally, Presiding Officer, because I know I did just say ‘finally’. [Interruption.] I did. This is my last ‘final’. In the plan you talk an awful lot about measuring outcomes, which is something that is very dear to a Conservative’s heart. What is less clear is how you’re going to measure those outcomes. You talk about asking for people’s views. There’s not much clarity over whether it’s quantitative research or qualitative research. On an awful lot of the outcomes, where you’re going to do the measurements, you don’t identify what people are going to be measured against and what their baselines are. So, I’d like your view on how well we think we can really monitor this plan to ensure that it does deliver for the people of Wales.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the series of questions. I’ll try and run through them briefly and quickly, bearing in mind the directive we had earlier on. On the point about building resilience and social prescribing, I don’t think there is any conflict between this delivery plan and the terms of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act. I think there may be a challenge about the way people are choosing to implement that and the priorities that they’re actually drawing up, but there’s nothing in this delivery plan and the terms of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act that cuts across and should prevent effective working between agencies to try and improve the voice for the service user. I’d be really interested, perhaps, if you’d write to me or speak to me about the particular example you’ve raised, both with the First Minister and me, about the community facilities that you say have been closed because of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act, because I’d be very, very surprised if there was a real statutory imperative to close the service that you referred to.There’s always the challenge about money, and you know that we’re living in straitened times. There is less money available to some services, which we would all value in all parties, but they are unlikely to receive that money to keep on moving forward. There’s always a choice about people who are able to provide those services, whether they’re volunteers or employees. Equally, there’s the perspective we made about the people commissioning those services, whether it’s the NHS or local government, about the purpose of that service, about the purpose of people providing it in the third sector or otherwise, and the quality that it is then providing as well. I’d be interested to hear more from you so that I can give, perhaps, a more helpful or specific response to the specific issue that you raised.On the Healthy Working Wales awards, I presented a number of these awards in the past, and it’s been really interesting to see the way that businesses—small, medium and large businesses—have actually responded. Mental health and well-being has been a really important part of the criteria that are used. In each of the storyboards we understand the journey that a business has gone on. They’ve learnt an awful lot themselves about looking after the well-being of their employees and supporting people to come back into the workplace. So, I’m content that, in the process that we have in looking at how small workplaces are involved and engaged, any small workplace that wants to engage in this award will find proactive support from the Government and our agencies and our partners in Public Health Wales to try and get engaged and to understand the real value of supporting their employees before they have mental health problems, during that time, and, hopefully, to help them back into the workplace as well.On CAMHS, the £8 million that we are investing in our ‘Together for Children and Young People’ programme, we have the NHS; it’s being led by the NHS. We have the third sector. We have a range of children and young people themselves involved as stakeholders. I think it’s actually a really positive way of people working together and recognising that, sharing together, actually they’re able to understand the challenges and the range of the problems and the answers as well. So, I recognise the point that you make about the difference between the specialist service, where people really do have very, very high-level needs, and people who understandably have a need that is not being currently resolved in a way that matches the needs of that individual young person and their family context in which it’s being seen. That’s part of the challenge of the work that we need to do with partners—it’s also why the mental health Measure has been important—about local services being made available. So, it’s seeing the whole spectrum from health and well-being—say, for a child at a young age, what happens within their education setting and other parts of their life, and then what happens if they do need additional support as well. So, I recognise that it’s not a complete picture as we are now, and I wouldn’t try to say that it is. But it features very heavily in the priorities that we have in this delivery plan. Finally, on outcomes, we’ve worked to look at and to borrow heavily from the public health outcomes to have an approach about how we understand whether outcomes are improving. Equally, it’s been part of what the third sector alliance was very, very interested in, about how this work has improved. Some of that work is in place, and there is more that’s being developed with the third sector to understand outcomes of real value, so they can really buy into them and they can understand themselves what that looks like. I’ll be more than happy to have a conversation with you and other spokespeople and colleagues in the Chamber about how we’re developing that work and how we’ll then be able to actually assess each year, second and third year, the outcomes that we are achieving for people across Wales.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you for providing us with this update today, Cabinet Secretary, and for providing us with the final delivery plan yesterday. When we discussed the draft plan in July, I raised the issue of access to psychological therapies. Early access to talking therapies, such as CBT, are proven to improve recovery and reduce the need for more acute services. I therefore welcome the commitment to improve access to psychological therapies and details of the funding. I would be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could outline how the Welsh Government will reduce waiting times for CBT in Wales. I also thank the Cabinet Secretary for the commitment to improving the CAMHS service. It will be welcome news that young people will not wait more than 48 hours for an urgent referral or more than 28 days for a routine appointment. However, I remain concerned about the out-of-area placement of children and young people. I welcome the commitment to reduce the number of out-of-area placements and the length of such placements. Can the Cabinet Secretary please explain why the reduction will only be by 10 per cent of the 2013-14 baseline? Surely, we can be more ambitious than that. Should we not aim to eradicate the majority of out-of-area placements, given the obvious impact this has on the mental health of those young people and their families? I look forward to learning more about how the new well-being bond will work in practice and for details of the social prescription scheme pilot. It is important that we ensure that everyone in Wales has access to community support schemes such as the excellent Sandfields centre or Tŷ Elis counselling service within my region. Will the social prescription scheme fund referrals to community support schemes such as these? They currently receive no funding from the NHS, despite offering valuable services to them. We welcome the commitment to developing a dementia strategic plan. Dementia care and elderly mental health care is sadly lagging behind the level of care that we expect. Also, to state something similar to Rhun, actually, the well-being of our carers, whether they are paid or unpaid, is of paramount importance, in ensuring that they take their breaks when they should, and also their holidays, as we need them to be fully fit for the delivery of these services. Finally, Cabinet Secretary, we welcome the recognition that the role of the third sector has to play in the delivery of this plan. The voluntary sector and all of us have a very important role to play not only in improving mental health care, but also in tackling the stigma of mental health, and how does the Cabinet Secretary propose to support the very important work undertaken by Time to Change Cymru? Thank you again for your statement; I look forward to working with you to deliver improvements to the mental health of the people in Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the series of comments and questions. I'll just stick to dealing with the questions. Your question about psychological therapies—I indicated in my statement and partially in answer to Rhun ap Iorwerth and his series of questions, of course, that the money we’re talking about is going to be largely invested in staff to provide the therapies, and that's the point about how we want to see improvement in the quality of care and in waiting times themselves as well. We know there’s a need for expanded capacity. And at the same time, though, not just by expanding the capacity we have, we need to look—and this is part of the question in CAMHS as well—and also make sure that the right pathway exists so that people who don't need that specialist care have an appropriate form of care in another part of the system, so that means that people who really do need access to specialist therapeutic support can and will receive it. It's also why we've changed our waiting time standards. Our waiting times standards are now tougher than in other parts of the UK. We’ve halved the time it takes to get to actually see someone to have an assessment, and then the time it takes to actually start a therapeutic intervention as well. So, we're actually moving to have a more demanding system, recognising that access to therapy when somebody needs it is often more important and, actually, you often get a better result the earlier that access is provided, which is why we are making the significant investment that I've already outlined.On out-of-area placements for children, we're very clear we've got an ambition to see the number of placements—not just for children, but also for adults, too, but you asked specifically about children—improve, so we need to make less use of these residential placements for children. We want to see more and more of that care provided in a local setting, in a community setting, and, often, the outcomes will be better. It's really if someone has very particular high-level needs that they would need an out-of-area placement, and that’ll be part of the work we need to do, to understand who really needs to have that placement and then to make sure an appropriate place is available for them. And sometimes that may not be in Wales—that may be the right thing for that person to do, but that is not the preferred option that we've set out or that services recognise they would want to have.On your points about the well-being bond and social prescribing, the Minister for public health and I will provide Members with more details as we’ve more data to provide you, and in particular, on the well-being bond, what that could look like, what it will mean for communities, and, on social prescribing, too, it goes across both of our responsibilities, because there is a lot to this that is about public health and how we get people active and engaged and recognising that a lot of this is about a person's general sense of well-being, and social prescribing can help that and really help physical health outcomes, too.There is real interest in this from the GP community right across Wales, and Dr Richard Lewis, once of the BMA, who is now the national clinical lead for primary care, is leading a piece of work on this, and I'm really optimistic about not just people buying into the idea, but then buying into a, hopefully, more simplified way to understand what social prescribing is and how to make that real for individual citizens and GPs themselves.And, finally, on Time to Change Wales, it enjoys cross-party support. We’ve continued to fund it. We'll review the delivery of Time to Change Wales, what we've achieved, and we’ll then look at what we do next, because the campaign to end stigma and discrimination against people with mental health—we've made real strides on a cross-basis in Wales that we can be proud of, but no-one should pretend that this is completed. There’s still more for us to do, so we'll continue to need to engage with both the third sector and the wider public about what we still need to do to change the narrative on mental health that is a normal part of everyday life.

Lynne Neagle AC: Can I thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement? If I could just start with CAMHS, I very much welcome the extra investment that the Welsh Government has put into CAMHS, and I'm really pleased that we're starting to see some progress, but, as you know yourself, waiting lists still remain unacceptably high. It was something that the children's commissioner highlighted before the children’s committee last week, and we also know that there are areas of regional variation that are problematic. Can I just ask—we’re part way through the programme now—how exactly the Welsh Government is monitoring this and also monitoring any regional variations?At the Samaritans’ impact launch yesterday, we learnt about their pilot schools programme, DEAL, delivering emotional awareness and listening in schools, which is a way of trying to improve the support that's available to young people in a school setting, and I welcome the commitment in the plan to looking at initiatives like that. Is that the kind of initiative that you would look to roll out across Wales, and will you be able to discuss this with the Cabinet Secretary for Education to see whether that might be possible?If I can just move on to dementia, as you know, I have been a champion of the need for a fully resourced dementia strategy for Wales. Dementia is, I believe, the biggest challenge that health and social care now faces in Wales, and I believe it should be on a par with conditions like cancer. I’m really pleased that the commitment to a dementia strategic plan remains in the plan that you published yesterday.I do just have a couple of questions, though. One of the areas of concern that I’ve identified previously is that the support workers, welcome though they are, will be done on the basis of GP clusters—a minimum of one dementia support worker per two GP clusters in Wales. That would allow a total of just 32 across Wales. Even on the basis of our current diagnosis rates, for everybody to have a dementia support worker we’d need around 370. So, I’d like to ask if that’s something you’re willing to keep under review, and whether that is something you will look at further when this plan goes out to consultation.Similarly with diagnosis rates, they’re currently at 43 per cent in Wales, which is the lowest rate in the UK at the moment. The 2016 target is 50 per cent. The Alzheimer’s Society thinks the figure should be more like 75 per cent. It would be unthinkable if 50 per cent of people with cancer in Wales didn’t get a diagnosis. So, is that also something that you will continue to keep under review, and look to introduce more ambitious targets as time goes on?Finally, any plan is only as good as its actual implementation on the ground. The cancer delivery plan has been driven forward by Welsh Government with some considerable success. Will you look at what mechanisms we can put in place to ensure that the dementia plan is driven forward at a senior Welsh Government level? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the series of questions. I’ll start with CAMHS. I recognise that we’ve had about a 21 per cent improvement in waiting times for people across Wales. However, the number’s still too high, and far too many people wait for too long. This still goes back to making sure that people who don’t need the specialist service have an alternative pathway for alternative support, because there almost certainly is a support need there, but CAMHS may not be the appropriate place for it. The investment that we’re making in staff should help with that, too. So, both things need to be done.So, I recognise there’s more to do, and, indeed, on CAMHS it’s part of the issue that I’ll raise with vice chairs. In my regular meetings with vice chairs I’ve made it clear this will be something I’ll return to each time we sit down. They know they’ll have to tell me about where they are and whether they’ve improved from where they were previously. So, this will be part of the direct accountability they’ll have from me as a Cabinet Secretary, so it’s not going to fall off the agenda. Even when we reach a position where we can say that we’re comfortable, that will need to be sustained as well. So, I don’t think this will fall off my particular agenda, or theirs, for some time to come.On the points you made, I’ll be happy to have further discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for Education about the role of support in and around schools, both primary and secondary. I’m sure that you and many others have visited schools in our constituencies and seen the school counselling service that exists, and recognise the value that teachers and headteachers in particular place on that service, and the difference they think it’s made both to behaviour and outcomes for the whole school community. So, it’s something we do want to see maintained, and there’s a clear strategic direction to support school counselling services. So, I’m more than happy to think about what we can do to understand what works best, and how people share practice, and what is an effective school counselling service for a particular school community or across a larger area.On your final series of questions on the dementia strategy, the work leading up to consultation—the stakeholders have taken part, they represent different parts of the community, so it isn’t just that Welsh Government are sitting down on their own, and that’s important. It’s also important that the chief medical officer is part of that group as well, so there is some senior leadership from Welsh Government reiterating the importance of this particular strategy to the Government. I hope that when you see the consultation come in you’ll see that it’s real and meaningful.Of course I‘ll review the points you made about the number of support workers, their role and function. I’ll review the points about diagnosis rates. I want us to achieve our current target of 50 per cent, and it should then be about, ‘And what do we then do next?’ I expect that, in the consultation, we’ll hear plenty from people about both of those points, and I would expect that to be the case, and encourage people to have a view on what is in the consultation and what people think is important, including if it isn’t there.That goes to your final point about delivery. Yes, we will think seriously about delivery and how we make sure there is both senior oversight and a clear rationale about how that reporting is then made on the progress that we’re making, and whether we’re making the sort of progress that we really want to and that we set out to.

We are way over time in this statement, but I have several Members not yet called. If I can get very short questions from each Member and short answers from the Minister, then I’ll call a few more speakers and extend the time. So, one question each, please. Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson AC: I thought you were looking at me. Yes, I’ll be very brief and I thank you for extending it. First Minister—sorry, I’ve done it now. I’ve promoted you now. [Laughter.] Cabinet Secretary, can I ask you—it will be a brief question—whether you agree that the importance of tackling mental health head on really starts in the workplace? Will you welcome the fact that the Assembly yesterday—the Commission—signed an understanding called the Time to Change pledge, which clearly sets out our vision that we will support anybody, whoever they are, if they have a need to access support in the workplace because of their own mental health well-being, and that we will always be there for them?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, I completely agree. I think it’s important that the Assembly and the Commission are showing leadership in this area too, not only in signing up to the Time to Change Wales pledge, but in recognising that being able to go back to work, and being able to remain in work, is really important for maintaining people’s sense of self-worth and well-being. I think most of us here get some enjoyment from actually being in the workplace. For lots of people, it can be a really important part of staying well and then recovering too. So, I’m really pleased to hear that the Commission is showing leadership in this area.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement today. One of the things that I noted in the report and very much welcome is an increased focus on prevention and general health, mental health and well-being. I wonder to what extent you’ve considered the opportunities to introduce mindfulness into our schools across Wales. You’ll be aware that there’s been a fantastic project, which is being led by Pen y Bryn school in my own constituency in the town of Colwyn Bay, where they’ve been using mindfulness in that school. It’s built up tremendous resilience amongst the pupils there to be able to cope with the day-to-day pressures of school life and, indeed, gives them that resilience, which they can then take on into their high school education and even further. I note that there is a reference to mindfulness in the plan. I’m very pleased to see that. It’s the first time that it’s appeared. But, I wonder to what extent that’s going to be delivered and how it’s going to be delivered to people of all ages. We’ve heard about the pressures on CAMHS in particular. This, I believe, is an opportunity for us to seize the moment and do something in particular around mindfulness in our schools.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the comments. I met Chris Ruane some time ago around the work that he had done in the cross-party group in Westminster. There was a consensus there for a broader approach, and the politicians themselves have found the usefulness of a mindfulness approach. I’m pleased you recognise that it’s formally mentioned in the delivery plan as well. The challenge will always be: what is the most effective route to support people to have that prevention and that resilience? I’d be very happy for you to write to me with details of the project that you mentioned in your constituency and how the school thinks that they have seen an improvement. That can then help to inform our approach as well. It’s something that we’re open-minded to, if you like.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you for the statement, Cabinet Secretary, and for the launch of the strategy yesterday. It was a busy day for you on World Mental Health Day 2016 with events at Hafal, the Samaritans and others. You will have heard, as well, the inspirational speech by Nigel Owens, talking about removing the stigma and talking openly about mental health issues, which we all need to do. Could I ask him, in terms of community resilience, what role he thinks initiatives such as Maesteg becoming a dementia-friendly town, the parish of Kenfig Hill and some of the churches joining together to become dementia-friendly parishes, the men’s shed movement—the first one in the UK was in Tondu in my constituency, but now is in Maesteg and is spreading throughout the country—and the work of champions in mental health, such as Mark Williams in Ogmore Vale, championing perinatal mental health, which is touched upon in this strategy, and also men’s mental health as well—? Isn’t it right that these people and these organisations will underpin the success of this strategy?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes. I’m very happy to recognise the series of references you made to your constituency, where real work is taking place. You’ll recognise that we’ve got an ambition for Wales to be a generally dementia-friendly nation, and that means more dementia-friendly communities and a broader approach that we need to take as a society. Some of that is about recognising that a number of the problems that men face are about their inability or unwillingness to talk or to be open about challenges, which are internalised and then end up being a bigger problem than they otherwise might need to. I’m really pleased to recognise the volunteer movements that are taking place, encouraging men in particular to find the space to have that conversation, to be more open and to actually have a better way of dealing with the challenges that many of us will face at different points in our life.I’m really pleased to deal with the point you raised about stigma, and not just Nigel Owens—there’s a broader point here about the world of sport, where actually there’s an opportunity to reach out, not just to men, and to recognise people who achieve at a high level and the challenges that they face, and for them to be open to talking about their own experiences, and about how that can feed into community-based sport for men and women, too. So, there’s lots for us to be excited about, and to harness the advantages we can gain for all those different parts of our community and the different reach that different people have, because sometimes the message isn’t most effectively delivered by a politician.

Finally, Nathan Gill.

Nathan Gill AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary—for now—Nigel Owens OBE yesterday talked about the need to talk about mental health issues, and he also talked about how suicide is the biggest killer of men under the age of 45. I would like to see counselling services in every school in Wales, which I think would go a long way towards preventative medicine, which is something that you’ve hit on quite a lot in this report. It would also encourage people, especially men, to talk about their feelings from a younger age. Do you agree with that, and do you think it is possible for us as a nation to be able to have counsellors in every school in Wales?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, I do. We’ve made significant progress on school counselling, in fact, and I’m pleased to see that there’s some recognition both of the importance of it and support for the difficult choices that local authorities and headteachers will have to make about their budget lines, as we face significant challenge over public expenditure generally. But, you make an important point about middle-aged men in particular and suicide risk, and there is this point again about different actors being prepared to stand up and say that they face challenges themselves and to describe how they got through it. What’s been really interesting, actually, is not just veterans talking about it, but often serving emergency services personnel as well, who’ve talked about the challenges they’ve had and how they got through them. So, there’s a wide range of different people who recognise that they’ve got a role in improvement across the country. We have a responsibility as the Government, and the NHS does as well, but actually a greater number of actors taking part in challenging stigma and discrimination will also help, I think, to improve the outcomes of people who really do reach out for support when they most need it.

Thank you to the Cabinet Secretary.

7. 6. Statement: Superfast Broadband in Wales

The next item is a statement by the Minister for Skills and Science on superfast broadband in Wales. I call on the Minister to make the statement—Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Lywydd. Today, I want to provide you with an update on the progress of Superfast Cymru, together with our emerging work to address the final few per cent of premises not part of the project or commercial roll-outs and a refreshed approach to communications and marketing.I’m sure that I do not need to impress on Members the growing importance of connectivity to homes and businesses. The opportunities it affords are limitless, and we need as many people as possible to be able to access it, but also to make the most of that access. Our aim, as outlined in ‘Taking Wales Forward’, is to bring people together digitally by offering fast, reliable broadband to every property in Wales.We continue to make solid progress on Superfast Cymru. To the end of June this year, we have provided access to superfast broadband to over 610,000 premises that would not have been able to receive superfast broadband speeds without our intervention. Today I have also provided Members with information about progress by local authority. Let me be clear: that’s 610,000 premises across Wales that can now enjoy broadband download speeds averaging around 66 Mbps as a result of this investment. This compares to an average speed of less than 10 across Wales when we started this work in 2013. However, this remains a complex project and deployment remains challenging. BT Openreach needs to maintain the momentum if it is to hit its contractual targets. My officials and I are monitoring progress very closely as the project moves towards completion.However, this is not just about numbers of premises and speed. The real benefit of Superfast Cymru is going to be how it is improving lives and supporting businesses. I’d like to share two examples with you. The mother of an autistic boy has told us how her son uses superfast connectivity to use specialist apps and websites on his iPad. He reads on his Kindle and does and submits his homework via an online portal. With a household of five, superfast broadband means he can still get online even if everyone else is online too. An entrepreneur in Conwy county, north Wales, who runs a cake-baking business uses broadband on a daily basis to communicate with customers, upload all her images quickly to a cloud storage system, keep up to date on social media and learn new skills from webinars and tutorials. Superfast broadband has enabled her to be far more efficient, dedicating more time to baking and decorating, rather than waiting for documents to download or trying to get in touch with customers.However, the roll-out has had its fair share of challenges and Members regularly write to me seeking answers and updates on a range of issues related to the roll-out. I thought it would be helpful if I addressed some of the common themes here. Firstly, the build phase of the Superfast Cymru project is due to be completed in June 2017. As with other major contracts of this size, there will then be a six- month window for Openreach to complete any in-build elements ahead of a contract drop dead date of 31 December 2017. You will all recall that the project was extended to June 2017 to allow for the inclusion of an additional 40,000 premises. The extension followed an open-market review which showed the number of premises that needed to be addressed under the project had increased, for example because of new-build premises or where premises due for roll-out under telecommunications companies’ own plans had been deemed economically unviable by them.Secondly, BT is delivering superfast fibre broadband using two technologies—fibre to the cabinet and fibre to the premises. Fibre to the cabinet involves installing a fibre roadside cabinet close to an existing copper cabinet and connecting the two so that the broadband signal travels to the home or business over the existing copper telephone cable. This is the most straightforward, cost-effective and common option, as it enables BT to improve the broadband for multiple premises at once. Fibre to the premises is more complicated. It involves extending a fibre cable to the premises itself. In many cases, the solution for each premises is bespoke. This adds to the cost, complexity and time taken to deliver.Fibre cannot be the answer for every premises. The Access Broadband Cymru scheme will continue to play a part in helping people to achieve a step change in their broadband speed, and the ultrafast connectivity voucher will continue to help businesses get the speeds they need to ensure they remain competitive. Furthermore, we have commissioned Airband Community Internet Ltd to deliver to around 2,000 business premises using a wireless solution. This work is progressing at pace and will be completed by December of this year.As the Superfast Cymru and Airband projects enter the home straight, we cannot rest on our laurels. We will need to focus on what comes next and how we are going to reach the final few per cent of premises. We’ve already started work to define where those premises will be. On 9 September, we published a public consultation to primarily engage with the telecoms industry to understand their deployment plans. This will enable us to target premises currently not part of any roll-out to further extend the Superfast Cymru project using £12.9 million of funding generated through the predicted take-up levels. We hope that this funding can be used to provide superfast broadband access ahead of the end of the current contract in December 2017. This extra funding will, however, only go part of the way to addressing the remaining premises. That is why I have asked officials to look at how deployment can continue into 2018 and beyond.Work is already well under way, with plans to launch a further detailed formal open-market review process later in the autumn. This is required to underpin the evidence-based assessment of where public intervention can take place under EU state aid guidelines. Only once the outcome of the review has been analysed will we be in a position to confirm whether and how a new procurement to provide access for further premises can be taken forward. Procurement activity could take place during 2017 with a new contract to commence in early 2018. However, I need to be clear that we cannot provide fibre connectivity at any cost, as providing value for money for the public purse is also vital.Work is also in hand to explore future funding options, including EU funding. We will be pressing BT to release further funding that it generates through take-up of the existing Superfast Cymru roll-out so that we can reinvest this funding in future deployments. We will also be seeking further support from the UK Government as well as looking to our own budget. Like the two examples I mentioned earlier, we want to make sure that everyone can make the most of the access they have to superfast broadband. This month, we have begun a multi-layered regional communications and engagement programme across Wales to raise awareness of the benefits of superfast broadband to consumers and to encourage use of the technology available to them.We will be delivering activity in every local authority in Wales between now and December 2017 through a blended approach of events, public relations, community engagement and advertising. We are working closely with local authorities to provide them with a toolkit to promote the use of superfast broadband, in addition to our own activity in each area. Finally, we are developing our website further to include personalised advice for customers and consumers to help people make more informed choices about their broadband. Members can be certain that I remain committed to offering fast, reliable broadband to every property in Wales, that plans to tackle the final few per cent are already in hand and that we are putting in place a programme to encourage consumers to make the most of the opportunities that this superfast broadband provides.

Dai Lloyd AC: May I thank the Minister for her statement? Naturally, it’s a very important subject—superfast broadband. It’s been the subject of a number of comments from people in my region. Naturally, we welcome the fact that there has been progress in this work and we have received additional information about the situation, on a county-by-county basis. As the Minister has already said, this project has been a long-term one and a complex one, with several challenges to face.Some of those—from looking at the table of the provision of broadband access in our counties, we see that places such as Ceredigion have only 60 per cent of premises with access to broadband. In Powys, the situation isn’t much better: 65 per cent of premises there have access to superfast broadband. I would hope, when this review takes place into how much work there is still to do—as you said here, in 2018 and onwards—that there will be a review of the number of premises in our most rural areas that are having problems at present in gaining access to broadband, because it is a matter of regret that those figures are so low in those counties, considering the fact that there has been very good progress in other areas.Turning to the business aspect of things, it’s good to say that, over the years, BT has received significant funding from EU funds, such as ERDF and so on—around £250 million over the years. Business understands that that kind of investment is needed, but what business can’t see—those that have been talking to me, at least—is that their costs as businesses have also doubled and can be very high, just for them to gain access to superfast broadband. I understand that that is outwith any investment that this Government does make into the Superfast Cymru scheme, but that’s what’s of concern to businesses out there. I’ve had several meetings over the past few months about the availability of superfast broadband and, when it is available, the increasing costs to businesses—they have to pay a lot for that service. In that regard, I would ask the Minister, as well as having an update on the points as to how we’re going to improve the situation in Ceredigion and Powys, for people in those areas, would the Minister be willing to meet with some business leaders who have been voicing their concerns in the Swansea region in order for me to give assurance to our businesses, which are increasingly reliant on these services, that there is certainty about the way forward in terms of the provision and in terms of the costs. Thank you very much.

Julie James AC: Thank you very much for those points. In terms of the roll-out and the rurality issue, the point about this programme is it is almost entirely based in rural areas, or non-metropolitan areas, because it’s a market intervention. So, the point about it is, we’re only allowed to go where the market isn’t going to go. So, it’s a truism, I’m afraid, that the market only goes to high-population areas and therefore this programme goes to lower population areas. So, you can see from the roll-out that that’s how it works. The figures are for the whole of the connectivity across, and bear in mind we’ve still got another year or so to go.So, this isn’t the final situation; this is the situation of premises passed—those are premises that definitely have a speed of 30 Mbps download or more, and most of them have 66 plus, but it’s 30 Mbps that’s the cut-off point. BT does not get paid for any premises that do not make the 30 Mbps mark. That is the target for them. So, the roll-out of broadband is faster than the premises passed number—this is from the end of June—and that’s because we have a rigorous process to test that the premises that they claim actually get the speeds that we think they should. So, there’s quite a lag in that and I spoke about the lag at the end of the contract while we get those final premises through and so on. This has been a very vigorous process to make sure that people get what we’re paying for, and we’re very keen that they should do that.At the same time, we always knew that this wasn’t going to get to 100 per cent of premises across Wales. We all are aware of the beautiful terrain in Wales and it is glorious and very much part of what we are, but it is, of course, problematic in telecommunications terms. It’s difficult to cable, there isn’t line of sight for telegraph poles and all the rest of it; Members will be more than familiar with that, I don’t need to tell them that. That’s why we have a project that is aimed at getting to the final 4 per cent or 5 per cent of premises and that will be via other methodologies. So, people will be aware—. I’m sure all Members have had constituents talk to them about the Access Broadband Cymru scheme, for example. There are some really good examples across rural Wales. I visited one with Kirsty Williams only the other day, where really excellent satellite technology is used to get speeds of up to 100Mbps down and upload, actually. So, it’s not a second-class service in any way; it just isn’t that cable service that we’re paying for.So, we will get to everyone. The problem we’ve got is that nobody wants to be in the last year. So, we are where we are. BT are going to meet those targets or pay a very severe financial penalty for not doing so. They will meet them. We monitor them very closely in that and, at that point, we will have a picture right across Wales where we can target the further resource we get from the gain share from the contract into those last few premises.On the businesses, we don’t control the cost that the ISP people charge, but I encourage all businesses to shop around, as I encourage all individuals to shop around. I’m more than happy, if you want to write to me, to come and meet any businesses that have concerns in that regard. We do have a list of ISPs that are available, and as they say on the BBC, other brands are available. But shopping around really does get benefits for people in terms of the cost of the service afterwards.

Russell George AC: I would like to firstly thank the Minister for the welcome statement today and the fact that the Superfast Cymru project has improved the availability of fibre broadband across Wales, benefiting residents and businesses alike in the intervention area. So, that should be welcome.Despite there being many advancements in Wales’s connectivity as a result of the Superfast Cymru project, the recently published evaluation of the programme highlights some key failings of the project to target the areas of Wales that are most in need of improved connectivity. Dai Lloyd has mentioned Ceredigion and Powys and, of course, I’m a resident of Powys myself and I appreciate the Minister providing those examples in her statement today, but I’ve got plenty of examples of constituents who’ve got alternative experiences. But, I appreciate the Minister will accept and be aware of that. I’ve got to say that I was pleased you’ve committed to the new funding stream to target premises that are not part of the roll-out. That’s to be welcomed as well.I do have a few questions. First, are you still confident that BT will meet its contractual obligations, or are you expecting to reinvest clawback funding as a result of the failure to meet the contractual obligations or the targets? In your statement, when I heard the date of 31 December 2017, I was a little alarmed by that, but I would just like some confirmation that it is in regard to the in-built elements that you continue to work through, and that that’s no excuse for any slippage from the June 2017 date. I’m sure that is the case, but it’d be useful to have that confirmation.The original open-market review conducted by Mott MacDonald identified 45,000 premises in Wales that would not benefit from the project. I’m sure you will agree that a number of businesses are making business-critical decisions based on assumptions that they will receive a fast, reliable broadband connection by a certain date. So, can I ask, are you in a position to provide the revised projected number and percentage of households and businesses, by local authority area, that will be outside the scope of the project? And are you able to proactively provide details on those households and businesses that will definitely miss out, so that they can make those contingency plans and they can make alternative arrangements via, of course, Access Broadband Cymru and the ultrafast connectivity voucher scheme?You’ve also talked about an engagement project as well, with regard to take-up, but can I ask you about your agreeability, if you like, to having a project of engagement for those communities that are missing out, and to explain the schemes that I’ve just mentioned, and which you’ve mentioned in your statement as well? I’d also be grateful if you could set out in some detail an area that I was disappointed was absent from the programme for government, about how you may be working to reform the planning system for telecommunications and to improve access by the telecoms industry to public sector assets to support further infrastructure investment and network deployment. I appreciate that there are elements that are not devolved, but there are elements that are devolved that you have got the levers to.I’d also be grateful if you could explain a little about how the Welsh Government is going to improve the situation with regard to marketing and communications and updating people. There are thousands of people who want answers. I get hundreds of people contacting me over a period of months. I was just a little concerned when you took the marketing element in-house. I know, Minister, that you’ve written to me in detail on this point, and I appreciate that, but perhaps you could explain, when you had the extension to the contract, why there wasn’t an element in there to ensure that Superfast Cymru were expected to deal with that marketing deployment, or marketing element, if you like. Because I appreciate answers to my letters, Minister, and when I write to you, there’s a fairly fast response in terms of ministerial correspondence—a couple of weeks—but I was getting a faster response before, when I was speaking directly to BT. So, that’s the element I would like you to address.Finally, your announcement that the Welsh Government is now placing a greater emphasis on demand stimulation and will be launching a communication engagement programme around that is very much to be welcomed. I think it is disappointing that the demand stimulation budget only equated to about 0.5 per cent of the overall programme budget. So, now that the delivery of the Superfast Cymru project is reaching the final stages, I think it’s essential, of course, that the Welsh Government ensures that the infrastructure is not left dormant—I’m sure that you’ll agree with that—but reaches its full potential for both domestic and business customers. You, Minister, have previously spoken about the need for the industry to drive up take-up, and I agree with you on that, but also, of course, it’s right that the Welsh Government benefits from the take-up as well, and I think that you should be aggressively promoting take-up because we’ve got to see that benefit released on the taxpayers’ investment and ensure that take-up surpasses the rather modest—I would say—take-up target of 50 per cent by 2024.Finally, I would just like a definition—

That’s your second ‘finally’. [Laughter.] You’re not getting around my stricter ruling by trying to adopt a second ‘finally’ policy.

Russell George AC: The two ‘finally’, the five-second ‘finally’—

Very quickly.

Russell George AC: A definition of ‘fast and reliable’, please, as well, Minister.

Julie James AC: Thank you for that series of questions and comments, Russell George. A day is not complete in my ministerial office without a letter from you on Superfast Cymru; so, I very much appreciate your interest on behalf of your constituents in this matter. I’ll try and get through all of them. The contractual obligations point: we’re not relying on clawback as a result of failure of BT to get the money we’re talking about. We have a gain share written into the contract. So, if take-up in any area where Superfast Cymru has arrived is more than 21 per cent, we get a profit share back of that. So, that’s the money we’re relying on. I do expect BT to meet its contractual obligations because the contract carries heavy financial penalties for them if they do not. So, it would very much not be in their interest to get into that position. The money that I talked about is not from clawback, as you put it; it is from a gain share that’s written into the contract. So, we’re already talking to BT about the use of that gain share and how we can get to the premises that are not included in it as a result.In my statement I did talk about another open-market review, which we will do in the autumn, because, again, it is a market intervention, so I have to make sure that I’m not going anywhere where there is going to be commercial roll-out. So, the best way to do that is to ask the commercial operators for their final analysis of where they are going to go, so that we can go to the places that other commercial operators cannot reach. Sorry, I couldn’t resist that. I am confident that we will get there.In terms of identifying those premises early, he will know that I have been pushing BT for a very considerable period of time to tell us the premises that they know definitely that they won’t get to. We have now got around 1 per cent of those, and the website is slowly changing over this week and next week to reflect that. Some of your constituents, when logging on to the website, will now get the message ‘out of scope’. They will also then get something to say what we are going to do for them. In some ways, they are the lucky ones because it means that we can get to them fast, whereas the people who are still ‘in scope’ but with no build date will have to wait until June 2017 for us to see whether BT gets there. The reason for that is this: we run this project as an all-Wales project. BT can go to any premises in Wales that they want to and get it to 30 Mbps or more, and we will pay them for that. So, we do not control where they go. They go where they can get to. It’s obviously in their interests to get to as many premises as possible as fast as possible because that’s what gives them their income. So, as the technology changes—and, indeed, it has changed over the sequence of this contract—. For example, re-capacitising—if that is a word—the cabinets that are already at capacity is one route to them getting more premises engaged up to 30 Mbps. As I say, it’s important for Members to realise how strict we are about that. They do not claim it and we pay them. We check the speeds on a premises-passed basis, and that’s how they get paid. So, it’s very strict, and we monitor it very, very carefully.In terms of the planning and mobile issues, mobile, as you know, is not devolved to Wales. [Interruption.] Yes. The Cabinet member for planning and I have already met and discussed the issues here. We have some officials doing a piece of work for us on what can be achieved in terms of permitted development, what can be achieved in consultation with things like the national park authorities, for example, and so on. There are restrictions that people will want to see. But as always with these things, it’s a trade-off: do you want very high mobile connectivity in your national park, or do you want no masts? I’m afraid that you can’t have both of those things, so it will be for local people to make those choices. It’s a matter for them which of those choices they want to make, and we can facilitate that choice for them.In terms of getting everywhere with what speed, the Member will know that the UK Government currently has a digital Bill going through Parliament and that that has a universal service obligation in it. That universal service obligation is currently at 10 Mbps, which is very considerably lower than where we want to be. We are pressing them to up that and to put an accelerator into it. It’s also not clear quite how universal the universal service obligation will be. Members will be familiar with how that works, for example, with telephones. There’s an amount of money that the telephone operator will pay to connect you to a landline, and after that you are expected to pay the rest yourself. Clearly, we are not happy with that because it disadvantages people in rural communities that are a long way from anything. So, we are putting a lot of work into understanding from them what exactly it is they mean, what those cut-off marks might look like, and what we can do as a Welsh Government to fill in the gaps for people. People left out of that universal service obligation will obviously be at a disadvantage unless we can fill those gaps in, and that’s very much what the gain share money is for.Lastly, in terms of their response, we’ve only just taken that in-house, and I’m afraid the team is taking a little while to get sorted. But I assure you that the response speeds will be back up to normal—I hope this week, but very soon. On marketing, we took it in-house because we wanted to target it specifically at areas with high take-up and at businesses that are vital to our economy. We wanted the local and regional Assembly Members to be involved in that marketing campaign. Because as I said, the higher the take-up, the more the gain share and the more money we have to reinvest in the programme.

David J Rowlands AC: I will try to make my comments a little more succinct, I promise. First of all, Cabinet Minister, I would like to thank you for your comprehensive statement this afternoon. First, can I sincerely congratulate the Welsh Government, on behalf of my party, for their extraordinary achievements over the last three years in making Wales the best-performing country in the UK, after England, at providing superfast broadband? I sincerely mean that, but can I draw your attention to the Government Social Research report in September of this year, which identified the lack of visibility on business take-up of superfast broadband due to the absence of relevant data? However, it was estimated that this was as low as 28 per cent after six months of availability. I think Dai Lloyd actually touched on this when he spoke to you earlier on. And given that the take-up by business is the main driver of economic growth anticipated through superfast broadband, can the Secretary indicate whether these two shortcomings have been, or are being, addressed? Can you also comment on the disparity in different areas of Wales? One may, to a certain extent, understand Powys lagging some way behind other areas, though, of course, this is not entirely acceptable, but it's very difficult to understand why Torfaen, one of my constituencies, also lags behind similar built-up regions.

Julie James AC: Okay, well, thank you for that, and thank you very much for your kind remarks. We’re very proud of the fact that we've got Wales to be one of the leaders in digital connectivity right across Europe, and it's a matter of some concern to us that we get people to take up the benefits of it now that we've spent the money in rolling it out.In terms of business take-up, one of the reasons that we have got our marketing back in-house is that we want to target it. BT were doing it previously, but, obviously, it's caught up in their commercial roll-out as well, and we very much wanted to emphasise the point that I was making earlier to Dai Lloyd, that many ISPs are available; you can shop around, you can get a better service for your business and so on. But also, our business advisers are running sessions right across Wales alongside this to demonstrate the benefits of broadband for businesses that hitherto haven't had it.And if I can just tell you this little anecdote, because you'll appreciate it, I often meet with people who say they haven't got any, ‘I just want 1 Mb—please, anything’, and I say, ‘Well, no, we don't want to do that. We want to get you to the point where you can do things that your business requires.’ ‘No, no, we’d just like to have the ability to download things.’ I always use the analogy of people who don't have electricity wanting enough electricity to have a light bulb in the middle of their house, but, actually, as soon as they've got that lightbulb, realising how many other things they should’ve asked for and, not having had the house wired in the first place, it's then much more expensive. So, it's a similar analogy—1 Mb will not get you very much at all; you cannot do cloud servicing, for example, off 1 Mb.So, what our business advice is now doing is it gives you a sort of menu at the back of what service you need to do what. So, you know, if you are a hotel venue in Wales, and you want to just offer those internet services that give you 2-for-1 vouchers and so on—there are a lot of companies that do that—because you want to fill up your venue on hitherto difficult-to-fill-up days—Tuesdays and Wednesdays, for the sake of argument—then, great, you can do that. You can get online and you can get people to book that way and so on, and lots of people take advantage of that. But, once you've filled up your hotel, you realise that the people who are there will want to streamline television on their devices, they want to upload their photographs, they want to tell their friends how great it is, and if they can't do that in your rooms, because you have no Wi-Fi, because you don't have enough broadband to allow people to log on all at once, then they will put a very nasty remark on TripAdvisor about your service and you'll suffer for that. And so what we're trying to make people see is what is available to them before they have the broadband in the first place, rather than them wait to get it and then try to upgrade it, because that's more expensive. So, that's the purpose of the business intervention. That's just one small example; there are many, many others that we could go into. So, that is what the take-up driver is for. That's what the marketing is for, and it's very targeted, and Members will hopefully see it happening in their areas, on their local radio stations. We'll have billboards up and so on. Lots of the business organisations in the area will be invited. So, I hope you will see that happening very much.And then, lastly, in terms of the geographical disparity, as you put it, I'll answer this again, even though I've answered it for every Member so far. We don't control the contracts on a local authority area; we control the contract for Wales. So, BT have to get to the number of premises in Wales that they need. I have no control over where that is. I don't know why it's more difficult to get it in Torfaen, but it could be something like the ducts are blocked, the cabinets could be at capacity, the previous phone network line hasn't been up to speed. I have absolutely no idea; there are all kinds of issues that come up in this contract. Rurality is not the only problem here; sometimes the streets are a problem, sometimes there are problems with, you know, all kinds of blockages and so on. But they have to get to the premises number for Wales that we have set, and then we will use the gain share money to get to the rest. So, it doesn't matter whether the percentage in Torfaen is lower at the moment. At the end of this administration it will be at 100 per cent.

Jenny Rathbone AC: My understanding, Minister, is that this wasn’t exclusively a contract to connect rural communities, because I do recall that the Penylan notspot in my constituency was one of the early wins of this contract. As they no longer bother me about this issue, I can rather assume that they’re now very happy bunnies.But I recently visited, with the Climate Change and Rural Affairs Committee, Ceredigion—in the last two weeks—and there farmers were very concerned that they had almost no connectivity at all, which, for rural communities, is a massive problem. How they are expected to run their business and submit their basic payment proposals online when they don’t actually have any connection in their homes is obviously a major issue for their businesses, particularly when new technology is increasingly being used to enable farmers to be more efficient. For example, in New Zealand I understand they’re using pasture meter sensor technology to examine every blade of grass on people’s land to ensure the right piece of grass to be directing their animals to. So, we are clearly going to need that sort of technology in the future here in Wales, with all the challenges posed by Brexit.So, I’m a bit unclear as to why the fact that wireless technology is not devolved in some way prevents us insisting with BT that, in this second contract, they use the wireless connections they now have, since they took over EE, because it’s perfectly clear that it’s going to be almost impossible to connect every single remote farm in every part of wales, or it’s going to be hugely expensive. Surely, wireless technology is going to a much more efficient way of doing it. But technology has moved on so much in the last five years, since you signed the contract with BT, that it seems that we’re in danger of missing a trick. You didn’t mention in your statement that Airband community internet is providing wireless solutions for around 2,000 business premises. Why is it therefore not possible to insist with BT that they use wireless solutions to connect the more remote communities? That would enable them to get much more quickly connected, and clearly they are not going to be able to run these rural businesses in the future unless they are connected. So, I’d be grateful for some guidance on that.

Julie James AC: So, on your first point, of course it’s not just rural, it’s just that most areas where there’s no commercial roll-out are rural. But you correctly identified a place in your own constituency that didn’t have commercial, although, weirdly, there’s a triangle in the middle of Swansea that didn’t have it either. But it’s just a sort of generality that, for the most part, it’s where there’s not a concentration of population.In terms of the farmers, actually the Cabinet Secretary and I have already spoken about getting data on how many farmers are not connected in Wales. We don’t actually have those data, because that’s not how we collect them, but we’re doing a piece of work at the moment to get the data on exactly how many farmers are not connected. We don’t have the data to know that. But I would say this: first of all, everybody is included in the roll-out, and there’s another year to go, as I’ve just said, for everybody else. Plus, we have the two schemes, the Access Broadband Cymru scheme and the ultrafast connectivity scheme, so if people want to invest in it now, they can do that, and we’ll help them. There’s a sliding scale of how much money the Welsh Government will help them with on that, depending on what improvements in their connection speeds they get.I recognise the problems that you mention, and everybody has them, and that’s why we want people to take it up. So, that’s why we have those schemes. We’re also working with communities to band together so they can get them as a community scheme as well.In terms of why we don’t insist that BT does that, the simple answer to that is because it’s not in the contract. It was a tendered contract done through European procurement. The contract is as it is. That’s what BT tendered for. They won the contract. Airband tendered for the 2,000 business premises, and they won that contract, so they’re putting their technology into it.Our ultrafast and ABC schemes, though, use any technology that’s available to get to the premises. So, the last 4 per cent that I’m always talking about probably won’t be cable fibre. It might be, but it probably won’t be—it will probably be satellite or other digital technologies. That’s not to be confused with the roll-out of 4G and 5G and the mobile infrastructure, which is not devolved to Wales. Although I have constant meetings with the mobile network operators, I have no power over them, so we are just simply enjoining them to do their best and putting a lot of pressure on the UK Government to make sure that we have geographical coverage in Wales as well as population coverage.

Quick questions and quick answers and I’ll try and get through as many of the people who have made an application to speak. Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Lywydd. Like others, I also welcome that the Welsh Government has committed £12.9 million to reaching those final few per cent of properties. But can the Minister perhaps provide any further details at this stage on how that funding will actually be allocated across Wales, given concerns raised by many of my constituents regarding the lack of action in some areas? I know that the Minister has said today that the Government monitors the delivery of broadband services very carefully, but can she tell us specifically how the Government will be monitoring to make sure that these services are actually being delivered on time or within acceptable timescales? If they’re not achieved, I think the Minister confirmed earlier that penalties can be imposed by the Government if the work is not carried out in a timely and appropriate manner. So, can she confirm if she believes the penalties she has at her disposal are sufficient to ensure that the work is undertaken in a timely and appropriate manner?

Julie James AC: I thank the Member for those important questions. We had a long meeting very recently to discuss some of these issues. I think it’s important not to conflate two separate issues. One is the ‘promise’, if you like, that BT used to have on their website that you might be in scope in the next three months. People were rightly very cheesed off when the three months went past and they weren’t connected and it rolled on another three months and so on. One of the reasons we’ve taken those functions in house is because we too were very cheesed off with that. That is not a matter for the contractual arrangements of the contract, however. As I say, the contractual arrangements of the contract are simply for Wales in the time available. So, we were putting a lot of pressure on BT to give people proper information, and not to give them overly optimistic information, to enable, for example, people to make sensible arrangements about whether they should invest in the ABC scheme. It’s very annoying to find, after a year, that you’ve been told every three months you’ll have the connectivity, when a year ago you could have invested in it and had it, for example.So, I have forcibly made those points to BT and, in fairness to them, they have changed the information. The website is now very different and gives you a lot more specific information and it doesn’t give you overly optimistic timescales. We’ve worked hard with them to do that. That’s not to be confused at all with the end date of the contract and the number of premises passed. So, I don’t have any control over whether they went to 32 Acacia Gardens or not, what I have control over is how many premises in Wales that they will get to. I’m confident they’ll meet that because there are severe penalties for them not doing so, but there aren’t rolling penalties in the contract.We do have quarterly review targets that we look at with BT and, because the technology has changed recently, for example, in how you make a cabinet have more connectivity to it, we flex those targets occasionally. But, so far, they’re on target. So, I have no qualms. I have no reason to believe they won’t make the target at the end of next year. I have every sympathy with people who expected to get it in the next three months period and then don’t. I didn’t want to move the website to saying, ‘You’ll get it by the end of June 2017’, because I felt that wasn’t very helpful either. So, what we’ve done is we’ve asked them to be very pessimistic about where people are and give them that information. So, if it says ‘in the next three months’, they would be 90 per cent certain of getting it in the next three months. I share the Member’s frustration about the rolling targets. I’ve similar problems in my own constituency.So, we’ve worked with them very hard to overcome some of those problems, but the contractual obligations are not to be conflated with these ongoing timing issues, if that makes sense.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Can I thank the Minister for her update today? She’ll no doubt be familiar from her postbag that access to superfast broadband is a hot topic for many of my constituents in Delyn. Not only does that highlight the problems people are having in terms of accessing that provision and the provider, but I think, for me, it shows just how far we’ve shifted in the past few years in terms of moving from superfast broadband being a luxury good to being an essential utility that we expect to receive now, with demand rising in line with that. I welcome the commitment and the intervention by the Welsh Government to ensure communities are able or will be able to access superfast broadband, but, echoing what many have said today, part of the process is ensuring that providers such as BT do meet their obligation to homes and businesses and communities across Wales.

Julie James AC: Indeed, and the Member is indeed a prolific correspondent on the subject, as are many Members in the Chamber. But, yes, I think it is important to recognise the cultural change that’s happened during the course of this programme. In 2013, when we started this programme, amongst the most common comments from people were, ‘Ah, you’ll never get it to us, and we don’t want it anyway. People want to come to’—name of place—‘to get away from it all, and to come offline’ and all the rest of it. That was a common thing said to us, and now the most common thing said to us is, ‘When am I getting this broadband?’ So, those three years have seen a big cultural shift in how people regard it. You don’t come to Wales to get away from it all, you come to have an adventure, and you want to tweet that adventure as you’re having it. And that’s great, but we want to keep pace with that. Again, I want to assure Members that we will get to everybody. It is difficult for the people who are at the end of the programme, but, as with all programmes, some people are at the beginning and some people are at the end. It’s frustrating if you are at the end, but we will get to you.

Darren Millar AC: Minister, I’m afraid that many people across Wales are just fed up of waiting for this. You’re in a Government that has overpromised about superfast broadband and absolutely failed to deliver. This was in your programme for government—[Interruption.] It was in your programme for government back in 2011 that you would deliver to every household and residential business in Wales superfast broadband. You’ve failed on that, and you can blame BT Openreach all you like, but you are the ones that gave them the contract, you are the ones that have moved the goalposts twice now in terms of delivery against that contract, and you’re the people who are letting the people and businesses of Wales down. Frankly, Minister, I’m not convinced that, even by the end of this term of this coalition Government, you’re going to achieve your objective, either. You’ve already said very clearly in your statement today that you cannot provide fibre connectivity at any cost, because you need to provide value for money. I accept that you need to provide value for money, but you also need to stop promising things that you’re failing to deliver. You failed to deliver it in the last term, and I suspect you’re going to fail again.Let’s just remind ourselves of those things that were promised. In your programme for government back in 2011, which I note, Llywydd, has been deleted from the Welsh Government’s website, you said that, by the end of 2015, all homes and businesses would receive superfast broadband. Then you moved the goalposts into 2016, then you moved it to the end of 2017. By now, there should be at least 655,000 homes and business premises attached to superfast broadband, but there aren’t. You’ve said in your statement today that there are only 610,000. So, what you’ve done is you’ve nudged the goalposts further and further along; I suspect you’ll move them beyond the next election as well, because you don’t want the electorate to hold you to account for these failures, either.What my constituents want to know is that, if they’re not going to get fibre broadband, how on earth are you going to address their needs? Why should my constituents in upper Colwyn Bay and in rural parts of Denbighshire and in other parts of Conwy, why should they put up with not being able to access these things, which are essential for those households today if they want to get the best deals on their utility bills, if they want their young people to get on with their homework and do the research that they need to support their education? It’s not acceptable; you need to pull your finger out and get this sorted.

Julie James AC: Can I say to Darren Millar how very much I’ve missed his righteous indignation; it’s been absent from the Chamber for a little while now, so it’s nice to see it back in full flood. Sadly, it is a little over-zealous in this instance, because I think he failed, really, to listen very carefully to my previous answers to Members. So, I’ll just reiterate them. We haven’t moved the goalposts, we haven’t changed the outcome of these, what we’ve done is we’ve added premises in during subsequent open-market reviews in order to get to as many premises in Wales as possible. The original targets were for 96 per cent of the premises that were built in Wales in 2011. Clearly, you don’t have to be a genius to know that other premises have been built between then and now. Also, it’s a market intervention—it isn’t an infrastructure project, it’s a market intervention. We have to make sure that we only go where the market doesn’t go, and so we are obliged to go through open-market review processes in order to add other premises to that.In the first open-market review, several telecommunications companies, for example, identified that they would commercially roll out to a number of industrial premises across Wales, and it became clear that they weren’t actually going to make good on those promises, and that’s why we conducted the second open-market review, in order to be able to include those premises. That’s what the second tranche was about. I’ve explained that to Members lots of times; I’m happy to explain it again.

You don’t need to explain it again, even if Darren Millar has asked you to.

Julie James AC: Okay, Llywydd, I’ll refrain from explaining it again, but I have explained it several times already.So, I don’t accept what he says. The final thing he said, though, I do accept very much: it has gone from a luxury to an essential, and that is why this Government is promising to get it to everybody. What I said about fibre broadband was that not everybody would be cabled. I said everybody would get fast, reliable broadband but it would not necessarily be via a fibre cable, and that is because other technologies have advanced very rapidly over the last three years. I mentioned one in another Member’s constituency, and, if Darren Millar would like to invite me to his constituency to speak to his constituents about what’s available, I’d be very happy to accept that invitation.

Finally, David Rees.

David Rees AC: Diolch, Lywydd. I will be brief. Minister, you’ve identified broadband in the industrial areas by Airband contract. Can you confirm that there are no more industrial areas that will be requiring additional contracts, which is critical? Can you also tell us what market will be in those industrial areas once they have been connected up, so that we can get the message out to people as soon as possible?You’ve also talked about re-capacitating today. As you know, I’ve got a problem with one of the boxes. Will you ensure that BT provides sufficient capacity in their cabinets so that there is no need to re-capacitate within that short space of time? Actually, they should be looking at a target of at least 50 per cent capacity for the houses in that box to ensure that it can deliver to the communities, and not put people on hold and they’ll come back in years to come when they’ve got time, not when people need it.

Julie James AC: Thank you. On that last point, as I’ve said repeatedly, BT needs to get to as many premises as possible as fast as possible to get through its contractual requirements, and I know that it’s taken a review of the cabinets that it previously put forward to see if it can increase the capacity on it. And if you want to write to me again about cabinet 16, which is the one I assume you’re talking about—the Member is also a prolific correspondent—I will be happy to have a look at that with him again in our quarterly meetings.In terms of the Airband contract, yes, absolutely, we will be extending the marketing to ensure that businesses are aware and available and all of the things I mentioned to David Rowlands earlier, so that they understand what the take-up can get to them; we will be doing that. I can’t actually guarantee at this very moment that no industrial premises will be left out, but we are, as I said, looking at another open-market review in the autumn, and that will be the final tranche. So, if there are any left out there, which I hope there aren’t, they’ll be swept up in that last open-market review.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary—I thank the Minister.

8. 7. Debate: Tackling Hate Crime—Progress and Challenges

The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Paul Davies.

We move on to item 7, the debate on tackling hate crime, and to move the motion, the Cabinet Secretary—Carl Sargeant.

Motion NDM6113 Jane HuttTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Notes the progress made through the Welsh Government's Tackling Hate Crime Framework.2. Recognises, in light of recent events, the continuing challenges posed by hate crime.

Motion moved.

Carl Sargeant AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. I welcome this opportunity to update Members on the progress made to date in Wales on tackling hate crime and the current challenges. I remind Members that I published an annual update in 2016-17 and a delivery plan in July that highlights the cross-Government action. I’d like to turn to the amendment at this point. I am happy for Members to note the all-Wales hate crime research project. This debate today will demonstrate how we have used the key recommendations from this report and other related research to raise awareness of hate crime, and increase the confidence of victims and witnesses to report hate crime. This is true, for example, in relation to restorative approaches for hate crime perpetrators. While criminal justice remains a non-devolved issue, Victim Support Cymru, who manage our hate crime report and support centre, are currently working with the Wales Community Rehabilitation Company to create a hate crime restorative justice and education programme for hate crime offenders. I therefore support the amendment laid today.This week is Hate Crime Awareness Week. It is a key time for our third sector partners and the four police forces. I have again made funding available to the four police and crime commissioners to support activities during the week, with a focus on increasing awareness and community engagement across Wales.In 2014, we launched ‘Tackling Hate Crimes and Incidents: A Framework for Action’, which sets out this Government’s commitment to change hostility and prejudice across all the protected characteristics. Our framework includes objectives on prevention, support and improving the multi-agency response. I published an updated delivery plan, as I said, in July. Since 2014, we have provided funding to Victim Support Cymru to operate the national hate crime report and support centre, and I’ve recently agreed to fund a national reporting centre for a further three years. This service, which is currently out to tender, is critical to provide independent advocacy and support for victims. We also continue to work closely with a range of criminal justice agencies through the hate crime criminal justice board, and our independent advisory group, which helps to monitor the progress from the grass-roots level.So, what progress have we made? We have seen a 20 per cent increase in hate crime reporting in 2015-16 and this can in large part be attributed to better awareness, confidence amongst victims and more accurate recording. However, we know that up to 50 per cent of victims are still not reporting, so there is much more to be done to assure victims that it is both important and worthwhile to report what they have suffered.We have made huge strides and we can be immensely proud that Wales is leading the way, but there is no room for complacency. We cannot ignore that part of the reported increase reflects a real spike in hate crimes following the EU referendum, nor the reality that some groups in our communities are more fearful following that vote. There are significant challenges ahead to reassure the majority and confront the few who want to incite hatred. We are ready for those challenges. The national reporting centre has delivered hate crime training to front-line key staff and community partners. In total 2,390 people have benefitted from this training.We must listen to the concerns that communities have voiced following the referendum and we must also be very clear indeed that the vote has not—and will not—legitimised hatred or abuse toward ethnic minority people and non-British nationals. Many people have said that they have lived in Wales for a generation but have experienced hate for the first time in the past few months; this will not be tolerated. I have spoken to the police and crime commissioners to ensure everything possible is being done to monitor and support the situation and the victims.As Assembly Members, we work with and listen to a wide range of people across our communities and constituencies. It’s important that we all reinforce the importance of reporting. This, of course, applies to hate crime based on a range of characteristics, including disability. Despite all the progress that’s been made, for example around the Paralympics, disabled people continue to be stigmatised and to experience abuse and hate. Whilst we’ve seen progress, including an increase in reporting, we must continue to strengthen and link with the disability organisations and communities across Wales.Similarly, we need to be aware and maintain a clear focus on hate crime against lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people. In fact, across Wales, sexual orientation hate crime was the second most commonly recorded hate crime. We will continue to tackle all forms of homophobia in our schools, in the workplace and in our communities. In Wales, transgender hate crimes had the lowest levels of reporting during 2015 and 2016, and we are committed to addressing this through our transgender action plan and will continue to work with partners across Wales.It is clear that education plays a vital role in addressing hate. Children and young people need an inclusive learning environment that values diversity, builds tolerance and understanding. When incidents happen, schools need to be clear about their arrangements to challenge unacceptable words and behaviour, including racism, and support the children involved. The Welsh Government has been working with Show Racism the Red Card since 2013 in developing resources to support schools and practitioners in tackling racism in the education sector. We’ve approved further work that will help equip and empower our teachers with the confidence to tackle racism and discrimination in our classrooms.Social media plays a significant role in most of our lives, and in this area there are significant challenges we all have the responsibility to face. We can see every day how the media and social networks affect our views on the world. Responses to the recent world events have led to an increase in the number of people airing racist and religious intolerance online. This is totally unacceptable and we will continue to look at new and innovative ways to tackle it. This week we’re publishing guides on online hate crime aimed at practitioners, the public and young people.I look forward to the comments made by Members today on this very important day marking hate crime week.

I have selected the amendment to the motion. I call on Mark Isherwood to move the amendment tabled in the name of Paul Davies.

Amendment 1—Paul DaviesAdd as new point at end of motion:Notes the key recommendations of the 'All Wales Hate Crime Research Project', which include that:a) more needs to be done to increase the confidence of victims and witnesses to report hate incidents and to promote the view that reporting hate is the ‘right thing to do’; andb) more should be done to ensure that hate crime perpetrators are dealt with effectively and that restorative approaches should be made more widely available in Wales.

Amendment 1 moved.

Mark Isherwood AC: As North Wales Police state, a hate crime incident is any incident perceived by the victim as being motivated by prejudice or hate. Although the National Police Chiefs Council have stated that recorded hate crimes increased following the result of the EU referendum, this problem is not exclusive to the post-EU-referendum period. Hate crimes recorded by South Wales Police for the two weeks to the end of June decreased slightly, but increased slightly in the first week of July, compared to the same weeks in 2015. The number of recorded hate crimes in Wales rose by more than 20 per cent during 2014-15, with almost 75 per cent classed as race hate crimes—a 19 per cent increase on the previous year. But campaigners said then that much of the rise was due, as the Minister said, to better reporting and communities feeling more positive about coming forward to report incidents.Reporting of hate crimes should be encouraged, hence our amendment 1 noting the key recommendations of the all-Wales hate crime research project on which the Welsh Government’s tackling hate crime framework is based. These include:‘more needs to be done to increase the confidence of victims and witnesses to report hate incidents and to promote the view that reporting hate is the “right thing to do”.’More needs to be done. It goes on to say that victims felt that incidents were too trivial to report or that the police were unable to do anything, and recommends that Welsh Government should take the lead on ensuring that accessible third-party reporting mechanisms are in place for victims who don’t want to report directly to the police.As the Minister said, Victim Support has been commissioned by the Welsh Government as the official national hate crime report and support centre for Wales. I also attended last year’s launch of the north Wales victim help centre—a partnership between Victim Support, the north Wales police and crime commissioner, North Wales Police, the Crown Prosecution Service and local third sector services, providing victim-centred emotional and practical support for victims of all crime types. They have a dedicated mental health and well-being caseworker and hate crime caseworker. Their strapline states that they will ensure that the needs of victims will be at the heart of everything they do.I also sponsored last year’s Rainbow Bridge launch event here in the Pierhead building, where Victim Support has been funded by the Big Lottery Fund to run a specialist domestic abuse service for people who identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual and/or transgender. Quoting the all-Wales hate crime research project, our amendment also states that‘more should be done to ensure that hate crime perpetrators are dealt with effectively and that restorative approaches should be made more widely available in Wales.’It continues: the research shows‘that victims’ overriding desire is for the hate incidents to stop happening to them.’They also want sanctions to be relevant to the offence committed and for perpetrators to recognise the impact of their actions. Many of the respondents emphasised the importance of education, indicating that restorative approaches should be used more widely and consistently. It is a concern, therefore, it said, to find that there is currently very little restorative practice being undertaken in Wales.The Older People’s Commissioner for Wales has warned that there is an increasing problem of older people being specifically targeted by criminals due to their supposed vulnerabilities. Despite this, they say, there remains a gap in the law that does not recognise these crimes, committed against older people because of their age, as hate crimes, whereas crimes committed against someone because of their disability, gender identity, race, religion, belief or sexual orientation are recognised in legislation as hate crimes due to their motivating factors and, as a consequence, additional penalties are considered there.Hate crime is a serious offence that can have devastating and long-lasting effects on individuals and communities across Wales. During this National Hate Crime Awareness Week, we must tackle hate crime issues by raising awareness of what hate crime is and how to respond to it, encouraging reporting and promoting local support services and resources. As the North Wales Association for Multicultural Integration states, it believes‘in the formation of a respectful, peaceful and healthy society through an understanding of the diverse cultures that exist in Wales today’.And, as the holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel stated,‘I swore never to be silent whenever…human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.’

Bethan Sayed AC: Thank you for this debate today. Plaid Cymru obviously is completely opposed to hate crime, and what I’d like to say at the beginning is that I think the target of hate crime changes from generation to generation and from community to community. I say this because my mother comes from Belfast, from the north of Ireland, and I remember distinctly, when we were walking down the street—sadly, in a Valleys community, but I’m not branding everybody that way—and a woman came up to her and heard her talking and said, ‘Why don’t you just go home?’ My mother said, ‘Well, this is my home, and I’ve got nowhere else to go’. So, I think, sometimes—I remember that and I was only about seven years old—the things that you remember have a distinct way of shaping your life. I think that’s why it’s so important that, even though there may be people who come to our country for various reasons, we should always start from a degree of tolerance. Everybody has their own stories to tell. Everybody has their own backgrounds to their own situations, regardless of ethnicity, sexuality or gender. So, I think sometimes, in all of this debate, yes, there may be people who are coming here for the wrong reasons, but we don’t know that until we actually talk to them. I think many people—the media and political parties—brand certain ethnicities or groups of people without even taking a second thought as to the torment that they’ve gone through to perhaps get to this country in the first place.We all know that hate crime has grown as a result of Brexit. I don’t know if it’s directly associated or whether it was a way in which people then thought that it was acceptable to come out with some inflammatory behaviour. When we had the communities and culture briefing with various organisations recently, we heard people saying that it’s getting worse in our schools, whereby other children are saying, because of the colour of their skin, they should not be present in the school environment anymore. I think that’s very, very worrying, if this type of attitude is deemed acceptable.Last weekend, we had the social media campaign #WeAreWales, showing an appetite to combat this kind of hostility. People want to live in strong, happy and inclusive communities. The principle of treating everyone with respect, regardless of who they are or what their background is, is under threat, and we need to protect that.We know that the Welsh Government’s report suggests that the increase in recorded hate crime offences could be viewed as a positive indicator, much like, potentially, with people reporting domestic violence, that people are coming forward to report that more because they feel more empowered to be able to do so. So, that might be a good indicator, but then it might show also that our communities are becoming more fraught with issues that we really need to get to grips with. So, I would call for some more rational and logical approach to the public debate on immigration, rather than fearmongering, which is driving division in our communities.We need to have an informed debate. There may be people from different political parties who are as guilty as each other in all of this. Rachel Reeves claimed at her party’s annual conference in September that tensions over immigration could explode into riots if the issue isn’t controlled. Using the word ‘riots’—it’s quite a strong word when you think about how this could impact on our communities.We need to address the fears of people in our communities with practical steps, like legislation to stop employers from undercutting the domestic workforce, not with reckless rhetoric. Much of people’s concerns arise from problems caused by the Tory UK Government’s destructive austerity agenda. Rather than acknowledging this and holding the Tories to account, we see, again, communities being pitted against other communities and then increasing that fear that I’ve mentioned already. It hasn’t been helpful—. I watched ‘Question Time’ last night. I hadn’t been here to see it originally, on Thursday. I just think that the Secretary of State for Wales not only attacking our own party but distorting history with smears and insinuation also made politicians come over in a very negative light. I think that he needs to justify what he said, and if he is associating a political party with what he said on that programme, then he needs to justify why and how, and give us evidence as to how he’s come to that conclusion.We all want to be treated in this place with respect amongst each other. We all want that to happen. Yes, we will argue and debate, but we can go outside this Chamber and we can talk to each other in a civil fashion. I think sometimes, if we just think about how we would like to be treated as human beings, then we can perhaps frame our political debate in a more positive and constructive way.

Dawn Bowden AC: Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for bringing forward this particular motion, which I think is well timed, given where we are this week? No doubt a good proportion of what we are going to hear today will be related to hate crime post Brexit. We’ve heard some of that already. But we shouldn’t forget that hate crime does include attacks—as we’ve already heard—based on gender, homophobia, disability and gender assignment. As figures and anecdotal evidence indicate, there’s not only an increase in race hate crime, but in all these other areas as well. Although it has been indicated that Brexit may or may not be responsible for this, I just think that it is too coincidental that, post-Brexit, we have seen such rises in other areas. It’s almost as though Brexit itself gave people—well, certain people—the green light to express their abhorrent prejudices, directing their hatred at anyone whom they perceive to be different to themselves. Llywydd, today, I wanted to specifically deal with attacks on those with disabilities. As the Cabinet Secretary has already indicated, figures did show that in 2014-15, there was a 20 per cent increase reported in all hate crime, of which 9 per cent related to disability. But of greater concern to me is the suggestion that at least 50 per cent of all hate crime is not reported at all. I will be amazed if the 2015-16 figures that we are about to see—they will be announced this week—don’t show that that figure has increased significantly as a result of the post-Brexit situation. But while referencing the increase in reported cases of disability-related hate crime, we should always remember to look behind the figures. As has been said, an increase in reported cases could, of course, mean that more people have the confidence to report such crimes, knowing that they will be both believed and supported, and that authorities will pursue, with appropriate vigour, action against the perpetrator. So, perhaps of more significance might be an analysis of the number of prosecutions over that same period, and we don’t have that information at the moment.However, there is always a danger in focusing solely on statistics. We should never lose sight of the fact that, for every case of disability-related hate crime, whether reported or not, whether a prosecution results or not, there is a victim—a victim who may already be among the most vulnerable in our society. So, we must always be mindful of their needs and how best we, as a society, can support them. To start addressing this, we do need to have a fully developed prevention strategy. Part of that, as the Cabinet Secretary has alluded to, must be the education, not just of children, but of the whole society. Of particular importance is that everyone appreciates that diversity should not just be accepted but should be welcomed and fostered. It is for this reason, Llywydd, that I wholeheartedly welcome the Welsh Government’s framework for action delivery plan. I am particularly pleased to see specific initiatives set out in the delivery plan in the areas of disability: the equality and inclusion grant supporting the work of Taking Flight theatre with young people; the work with Disability Sport Wales to recruit and train more coaches and leaders who are disabled; support for the disability hate crime group to work with communities in raising awareness of hate crime; and ensuring flexible and accessible reporting mechanisms to report hate crime.In conclusion, colleagues, can I urge not just support for this motion, but ask each and every one of you, as elected Members of this Assembly, to make delivery of this wide-ranging, innovative and progressive delivery plan a reality across the whole of Wales?

Michelle Brown AC: I welcome effective measures to tackle hate crime and all forms of prejudice. Hate crime is a crime based in prejudice and bigotry. I have always lived by the principle of live how you choose, believe what you like as long as you don’t harm anyone. Sadly, there are many people who don’t live by that principle. There are people who want to drive out behaviours they see as aberrant, who want to drive out people they regard as different, who want to silence those with different beliefs or political views, and who will use violence and intimidation to do so. There is a continuum of prejudice, with ignorance at one end and hate crime at the other. Bigots and thugs sit on the left and right of politics. It was prejudice that said voting ‘leave’ was about ignorance, lack of education and fear, when it was really about people understanding that the EU wasn’t working for them. We in north-east Wales have seen how the local Labour Party conducts itself and controls its thugs at an electoral count. Prejudice against the English or people who live in England is just as nasty as prejudice against any immigrant who comes to Wales.As with other crime statistics, an increase in the number of hate crimes reported is not necessarily an indication that more of those crimes are actually being committed. Increases in reported crime are therefore more a testament to the effectiveness of the publicity machine surrounding hate crime than evidence that our society has become more intolerant. The statistics that gave rise to this debate are far from indicative of what’s happening on the streets and elsewhere. We need a proper investigation into the actual prevalence of hate crime in our society, and not leap on some unreliable data because it suits certain people’s political agendas.

Julie Morgan AC: I'm very pleased to take part in this debate, especially during this awareness week, and I thank the Cabinet Secretary for updating us on the progress that has been made and his acknowledgement that there is still a long way to go. Although progress has been made, hate crime is still a daily reality for many people in Wales, ruining people’s lives and people living in dread of being the victims of hate crimes. It is an appalling reflection of the society we live in, and it does cover so many areas. Today, I wanted to particularly concentrate on the treatment of members of the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller community, who are very frequently the target of hate crimes and discrimination here in Wales. This targeting of this community is nothing new; it has gone on for many, many years.During Hate Crime Awareness Week, I know that a group of young people from the community in south-east Wales will be meeting with the Police and Crime Commissioner for Gwent to talk about tackling bullying and hate crime directed at the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller community. I think that is very welcome, so that the issues can be considered by the commissioner, because, sadly, the community suffers from discrimination and there is a need to tackle negative attitudes towards this community. Young people from the Gypsy and Traveller community who were involved in the Travelling Ahead project feel very strongly that there is still a need to train teachers, police officers and other professionals, because there is still discrimination and hate crimes being targeted at them, and they have collated and created a number of resources to combat this. For example, they’ve made some short films, written poems and presentations, which will be made available when training teachers, police, councillors and other young people.And that leads me on to another point, which is that when hate crimes are reported, it still seems that there is a problem with how those crimes are dealt with and how they are recorded. The all-Wales hate crime research project collated the number of hate crimes that had been recorded in England and Wales in 2011-12, and the vast majority of those, 82 per cent, were race hate crimes, but only 45 per cent of those who were victims of hate crime felt that the police took the matter as seriously as they should have done, and this chimes with the experiences of Gypsies and Travellers involved in the Travelling Ahead project. They feel that the police still don't listen to them. I know that there is training going on with the police, but the perception of the young people is that they are not being listened to.I think there's also an issue about the way that police forces collect statistics about hate crime and that the ethnic status data are quite difficult to break down. So, it is actually quite difficult to get an analysis of the number of hate crimes that are specifically directed against Gypsies and Travellers, because they are subsumed in the overall ethnic crime figures. I think that would be a great improvement if we could actually break down the figures, because, in particular with Gypsies and Travellers, we need to know what those figures are and how great this suffering is.I'd like to just finally, really, end with the thoughts of one of the young people from the Travelling Ahead group, Tyrone Price. He put forward a question that I think is very thought provoking, and I think it’s a very valid question: have we actually improved tackling racism, or are people just pretending to accept this concept of equality? I think this is obviously what a young person feels very strongly, that a lot of the progress we have made towards equality, some of it is perhaps token, and we have to really make race equality an absolute reality, particularly for the young people who are suffering from prejudice and hate crime. As I say, my remarks are really about the Gypsy and Traveller community today.

Darren Millar AC: I want to just speak briefly in this debate today, and I’m pleased that we’re having it, because I think it is important that we take the time to reflect on the intolerance that sometimes exists here in Welsh society. We know that, by and large, the overwhelming majority of people in Wales are very tolerant people, and our communities by and large get on very well. But, as the son of an Irish immigrant, I also know of the hate that has existed towards smaller populations in Wales, and indeed in other parts of the United Kingdom in the past. I certainly don’t want to see that manifesting here on our doorsteps in our communities.I’m very pleased that the Minister, and indeed the Welsh Government, is taking this issue seriously, and that they’ve been working with the police and other agencies in order to try and do what they can to deal with and address the hate crime that does exist here in Wales.I was very pleased last week to chair the cross-party group on faith in the National Assembly, and a number of Assembly Members were also able to attend. At that meeting we heard some very interesting statistics, talking about the spike in hate crime that occurred post Brexit, and we were very relieved to hear that that spike in reported crime had actually settled down. I hope that that will become something that continues to reduce, of course, in the future. But I wonder, Minister, in your response to the debate today, whether you might be able to update us on the work of the faith communities forum that the First Minister convenes on a regular basis? Because I know how important that forum has been in terms of being able to improve the relationships between different faiths here in Wales, and indeed to help the faith community leaders of Wales to disseminate information back to their faith communities about the need to be tolerant and, indeed, to improve relationships more generally. Will you also join me, Minister, when you close the debate, in congratulating members of the faith communities forum, Cytûn, the Muslim Council of Wales, the Evangelical Alliance and many others, who’ve contributed to that excellent understanding and joint working across the different faith communities, which has achieved so much, really, here in Wales in recent years?I notice as well that the report does touch on the importance of religious education in helping to get these messages about tolerance and understanding of people’s faiths and different attitudes in society over to the next generation. I really do believe that the curriculum overhaul that’s going on in Wales provides an opportunity to improve religious education in order to deal with, if you like, any emerging issues that there might be amongst our younger people, particularly when they’ve seen some of the reports in the media during the Brexit debate, and how that might have influenced their attitudes towards one another. I do believe that religious education has a very key role in helping to address hate crime in the future for our nation. So, I wonder, Minister, whether you can tell us what discussions you’ve been having with the Cabinet Secretary for Education in relation to ensuring that the development of our curriculum does include a focus on hate crime within the religious education curriculum. Thank you.

John Griffiths AC: Minister, I think it’s very obviously the case—and I think all Members here would hopefully agree with this—that misunderstandings often occur and cause problems when we don’t have the level of integration that we might have in our communities, and we’re not effective enough in bringing different sections of the community together. Certainly, in my experience, having been born and brought up in Pill in Newport, a very multi-ethnic community, it adds a great deal to life experience, growing up in such a community, because there’s such a great variety of culture, of music, of dance, of food, and it’s really instructive and interesting to talk to other people in terms of their backgrounds, their family backgrounds and the parts of the world that they know a lot about. So, I believe it’s very enriching, and when people are brought together from different sections of the community, that is commonly their view, but perhaps not enough is done to try to achieve that integration and bring different parts of our society together.When we do have effective ways of doing that, I think we should celebrate them and build on them. In that respect, I’d like to mention Maindee Festival in Newport, which, for a number of years, has done really good work in bringing different sections of the multi-ethnic Maindee community together. There are substantial Asian communities in Maindee, lots of new arrivals from the European Union, eastern Europe and beyond, West Indian communities, and many others. And, of course, that’s in addition to people from Ireland—and my own mother, like the relative that Darren Millar mentioned, came over to Newport from Ireland. So, very many people from different backgrounds come together, and the Maindee Festival really does allow that coming together to take place and that integration to happen.So, I’d like to pay tribute to the organisers of the Maindee Festival. For many years now, they’ve built upon the initial event. There’s a parade every year, every summer, and a festival follows. It’s music, it’s dance, it’s food and drink, it’s art and culture generally, and it’s very, very successful. Of course, it doesn’t happen without a lot of work, and the work to organise the next year’s event really begins just after the festival ends, during the summer. So, I wonder whether Welsh Government might look at how they work not just with the Maindee Festival, but with similar organisations right across Wales that are organising these events, so that they can be built further and made even more effective. And I would like to invite the Minister to the Maindee Festival next summer in Newport. I’d be very pleased if he accepted that invitation in his contribution to this debate later.

Neil Hamilton AC: UKIP supports the motion and the amendments, but I want to deal right at the very start of my short contribution with the canard that we’ve heard a few times in the debate today about the influence of Brexit upon the prevalence of hate crimes. Well, there’s no point in going back over the arguments on the numbers immediately post the referendum, because the National Police Chief’s Council has released the data for the period since the referendum, up to the end of August. Mark Hamilton—no relation—assistant chief constable says,‘We have seen continued decreases in reports of hate crimes to forces and these reports have now returned to formerly seen levels for 2016. For this reason, we will return to our previous reporting procedures and will no longer be requiring weekly updates from forces.’So, if there was a spike immediately after the referendum, then it has disappeared.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you. I was just going to say, they are not Wales-specific figures, I assume, that you’re referring to. One thing that we do know is that there was a spike post Brexit in Wales. Things have settled down, as I said in my speech earlier. That’s the reported information that’s coming back to us. But, you must accept that some people, albeit few, used the Brexit situation to fuel hatred between communities in Wales, and that was not acceptable.

Neil Hamilton AC: Well, of course it’s not acceptable, if it happened, but the extent to which it happened—[Interruption.] We have no first-hand information; we are assuming it happened. You are making assumptions that it happened. We have no first-hand information as to what this—. In fact, this is the point I wanted—[Interruption.] I’m afraid I can’t give way, because of the shortness of time.

It’s your decision, if you’re not taking an intervention.

Neil Hamilton AC: I do want to make what I think is an important point here, that, of course, hate crime, in whatever form it exists is to be deplored and not to be tolerated and, indeed, to be punished, and punished severely. But, we must keep this in perspective. Britain, and Wales in particular, are tolerant countries. We are not bigots. The number of hate crimes recorded is actually very, very small. The figures to which the Cabinet Secretary referred in the 2014-15 report show a total of 2,259. That’s 2,259 too many, but even if there is underreporting, as we all assume that there is, it’s still not a vast number for a year. Dawn Bowden made the point that the increases may partly be a result of greater awareness of the means of reporting and of the need to report. So, I don’t think that this is an epidemic, by any means.We have seen, in the last couple of years, the disappearance of the British National Party, the English Defence League has shrivelled to a fraction of its former importance, and my party, for years, has had a policy of proscribing political parties and not allowing refugees from them into our ranks. So, if anybody is trying to libel us by saying that we take in racists, they are very much to be deplored themselves. Indeed, Joyce Watson accused me the other day in this Chamber of standing on a platform of hatred. That in itself is a form of hate crime, I suppose, and intolerance. So, I think that Members on all sides of the house should treat each other with respect, as Bethan Jenkins said in her opening remarks. What I want this Chamber to accept is that hate crime, yes, of course, is to be deplored, but it is not an epidemic and it doesn’t look as though it’s going to become so.The figures that are recorded in the report to which the Cabinet Secretary referred come from the True Vision website. Not all of the reports are investigated by the police, because you can make reports anonymously and, therefore, it would be impossible to take them further. So, that reinforces the point that I started making at the beginning of my speech. It is also self-selecting, and I quote—because this is what justifies a hate crime in terms of the figures that are recorded:‘Evidence of the hostility is not required for an incident or crime to be recorded as a hate crime or hate incident…. the perception of the victim, or any other person…is the defining factor….The victim does not have to justify or provide evidence of their belief, and police officers or staff should not directly challenge this perception.’So, the figures that we have have to be seen in the light of those self-selecting rules. I mean, 1 per cent of the figures cover bicycle thefts, for example. I don’t know what a racially motivated bicycle theft is, but that, I think, should inspire us to treat with caution treating the figures as if they are holy writ.It is indeed a slur upon the millions and millions of people who voted for Brexit because of their fears about the social effects of too rapid mass immigration to call their motivations racist. Actually, the Labour Party, in making that claim, are actually attacking their own supporters and former supporters, because the biggest Brexit votes in Wales, of course, as we know, took place in places like Torfaen, Merthyr, Ebbw Vale, and so on, and so forth. So, I think it is a mistake for us to allow the debate on hate crime to wander off into the byways of politics because, yes, hate crime is something to be deplored and, so far as we can do it, to be eradicated, but we will not do that by casting slurs upon people who do not hate and are not racists. Therefore, we need to keep this in perspective.Yes, we support the motion and we support the aims of the Government, and the measured way in which the Cabinet Secretary introduced this debate today is to be applauded. For my part and my party’s part, we will support the initiatives that the Government has set in train. But, please, don’t cast the slur of racism and intolerance upon us.

Hannah Blythyn AC: I welcome the Welsh Government’s position of tackling hate crime as a priority and it continues to take a zero-tolerance approach, as each and every one of us should, to hate crime. It’s right that the tackling hate crime and incidents framework covers hate crime of all kinds, including race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, gender identity and age. There can be no hierarchy of hate and our resolve to tackle all crimes of this nature must be absolute. The challenge for us is to ensure that the intentions and guidance in the framework translate positively into action and change in real life for people in our communities across Wales. All of us in elected and public life have a responsibility and duty of care regarding how we conduct ourselves and the way in which we choose to communicate. What may just be words for one person have the potential to inflict pain and, in some cases, incite hate on another.I was shocked, but sadly not surprised, to learn over the weekend of a rise in homophobic attacks since the EU referendum vote in May. Figures released by the charity Galop show that homophobic attacks rose by 147 per cent in the people surveyed in the same three-month period following this year’s Brexit vote compared to the same time last year. And this is just the people surveyed, the people who felt able to share their experiences. The real figures could be even higher—

Jeremy Miles AC: Will you take an intervention?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Quickly.

Jeremy Miles AC: She raises the question of people feeling able to share their experiences. Would she acknowledge that the incidents of transphobic hate crime are significantly under-reported at about 1 per cent of all hate crimes? And, would she agree that a focus on community work between trans organisations and the police, for example, the Swansea Sparkle event partnership with the South Wales Police, can help support people to report crimes that they’ve been victims of?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Absolutely, yes. It’s important that trans people and their voices are heard in shaping and being instrumental in strategies and services that are there to support them. Continued action, partnership and vigilance is needed by all, and tackling hate crime and the conduct and compassion of political representatives is integral.This week might be Hate Crime Awareness Week, but today is National Coming Out Day, and to use an analogy that Members might be more familiar with, coming out, like devolution, can be a process not an event. For many of us, coming out is not a one-off experience, but something you repeat time and time again, because there is still a straight assumption in society reinforced by rigid stereotypes and gender roles. We’ve come a long way, but coming out still remains a deeply personal moment for most LGBT people. Our choice to reveal this part of our identity comes with a fear of how others will react, a fear of rejection, of prejudice and even of hate. I felt some of this trepidation myself and a little bit of fear when I first stood for election, as an out woman. But I was lucky; I knew I had the support of amazing family, friends, Welsh Labour colleagues and campaigners, and I hope that every LGBT person can find a network of friendship and support that allows them to be themselves and, in turn, challenge isolation and hate.The Welsh Government’s hate crime delivery plan sets out the actions to prevent hate crime and support victims across Government. Now we must all work to ensure that this equals positive actions across life, on our streets, in our workplaces and in our communities.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary to respond to the debate—Carl Sargeant.

Carl Sargeant AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. I’m grateful for the opportunity to respond to this broadly welcomed debate by many. The successes around tackling hate crime have focused on an integral partnership approach with a range of third sector and statutory partners across Wales. This approach has paid dividends as we take forward the delivery of better outcomes for victims.Many comments were shared across the Chamber that I consistently support, and I’m grateful for the contributions by many Members, including the opening remarks by Bethan Jenkins in her view of localised issues that she was aware of as well, which happen on a daily basis, and as a child.The points Darren Millar raised about the faith forum is an important one. The faith forum has been used as a useful, effective tool of sharing different faiths and understandings in a reasoned way with people who can help each other understand the difficulties of explaining faith and remove tensions. It’s something that the First Minister and now I, as chair, work very closely with organisations across Wales on. I’ve already had a message from the education Cabinet Secretary telling us about the new curriculum and how faith will feature in there. It may be a discussion that the Member wishes to pursue.Can I say, apart from the contributions made by the UKIP Members, I very warmly welcome the consideration made by Members? But I’m speechless—I’m speechless—at the contributions from Michelle Brown and Neil Hamilton today. Bethan Jenkins used the quote about treating others how we would like to be treated—equally—and I think that’s an important point that I would ask those Members to reflect on. Of course, the suggestion by UKIP of ‘dodgy figures’, ‘It was only a few figures…it was only a few hate crimes…1 per cent…it doesn’t really matter then, does it?’ Well, let me tell you, those people—

Neil Hamilton rose—

Carl Sargeant AC: No. I will give way in a second.[Continues.]—those people who are suffering from hate crime have got a right to equality here in Wales. And whether the Member lives in Wiltshire or wherever, the fact is, here, we’re a welcoming country here in Wales—[Interruption.] I’ll take the intervention from the Member if he wants to try and dig a hole further.

Neil Hamilton AC: I’m not sure whether it’ll be worth it, Llywydd, but, nevertheless, I said in the course of my speech that hate crime was wholly to be deprecated and not to be tolerated and to be punished severely where it exists. All I did was to refer to the figures in the report, which the Minister himself referred to in his speech, and subject them to a little statistical scrutiny. What’s wrong with that?

Carl Sargeant AC: Yes, well I’m grateful for the intervention from the Member. Let me remind the Member of these statistics: 1,574 were race related; 319 related to sexuality; 240 to disability; 90 to religion; and 25 to transgender. These are the ‘small’ numbers that the Member refers to in regard to a small proportion of hate crime. Let me remind the Member also of the referendum, which he also dismisses as having had any impact on hate crime at all. In light of the recent rises in racism following the outcomes of the EU referendum it’s important that we continue to work together to tackle this intolerance. In the month following the EU referendum—the Member can’t contradict these; they are figures issued by the Home Office—there was a 72 per cent increase in referrals to the Welsh Government-funded national hate crime report and support centre in comparison to the referrals in 2015. The only common thing that happened there was the EU referendum. You cannot dispute that programme.As the Member is the leader now of the UKIP programme, maybe he would have a view, when he said about people suggesting that UKIP bring into their ranks racists et cetera—maybe now the leader would like to refer back to a media report where one of his Members, currently, blamed ethnic minorities for litter and hygiene problems here in Cardiff. Now, what’s the Member going to do about that in his statement regarding hate crime?Let me just remind Members—this is an important debate in national hate crime week, and we should all come together to deliver on a welcoming country for all. I hope Neil Hamilton and Michelle Brown will reflect on their comments today and consider their implications for the wider communities that they are now here to represent. I’m glad for the opportunity to speak about these issues during hate crime week and I look forward to working with Members of all parties to tackle all forms of hate wherever that occurs.

Thank you to the Cabinet Secretary. The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? No, so amendment 1 is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 1 agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The proposal therefore is to agree the motion as amended.

Motion NDM6113 as amended:To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Notes the progress made through the Welsh Government's Tackling Hate Crime Framework.2. Recognises, in light of recent events, the continuing challenges posed by hate crime.3. Notes the key recommendations of the 'All Wales Hate Crime Research Project', which include that:a) more needs to be done to increase the confidence of victims and witnesses to report hate incidents and to promote the view that reporting hate is the ‘right thing to do’; andb) more should be done to ensure that hate crime perpetrators are dealt with effectively and that restorative approaches should be made more widely available in Wales.

Does any Member object? No, so the motion as amended is agreed.

Motion NDM6113 as amended agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

9. 8. Statement: Oil Spill at Nantycaws, Carmarthenshire

The final item on our agenda is the statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs on the oil spill at Nantycaws in Carmarthenshire. I call on the Cabinet Secretary, Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Lywydd. As Members will be aware, on 4 October, Natural Resources Wales were notified of a kerosene spill from the pipeline adjacent to the A48 near Nantycaws.In the immediate response to the incident, the fire and rescue service deployed emergency oil spill containment booms on the Nant Pibwr and Natural Resources Wales established a multi-agency co-ordination centre. Specialist clean-up contractors engaged by the operator, Valero, were on site by Tuesday afternoon to begin the work of removing the oil from the stream. According to Valero an estimated 140,000 litres had escaped from the mainline pipeline. However, more than two thirds of this has now been recovered by Valero’s specialist contractors. A series of oil spill containment booms remains in place while the oil is being removed. Valero and its contractors are undertaking the clean-up response with advice from Natural Resources Wales.NRW is undertaking monitoring of potential environmental impacts, together with Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water, Public Health Wales and Carmarthenshire County Council. People are of course concerned about their drinking water. An article in yesterday’s ‘Western Mail’ about the Nantycaws kerosene spill mistakenly stated that Welsh Water confirmed on Friday that there was an impact on water supplies, when it should have said that they had confirmed there was no impact on public water supplies. This was a mistake and Dŵr Cymru contacted the editor yesterday to get this corrected as soon as possible, and a correction has been printed in today’s edition of the newspaper. I understand all other relevant media outlets have been informed that this was an error on the part of the newspaper and Dŵr Cymru have also put out a message on social media in order to mitigate any unmerited levels of concern.Four local properties of the 12 that draw water from private supplies in the immediate area as a precaution are not using their supplies for the time being. Dŵr Cymru has provided bottled water and will continue to do so on request. Dŵr Cymru has also offered to temporarily connect those properties to the public water supply network. One property has accepted this offer. The other properties have been advised to contact the Valero liaison officer who will then liaise with Dŵr Cymru on their behalf should they wish to connect.Initial river ecological surveys have been carried out to assess the significance of localised damage to the river ecology and a fish kill assessment was also conducted. The ecological impacts appear to have been limited to a small section of the Nant Pibwr and there is no sign of significant impact downstream on the River Towy. Work on site to monitor and remediate the potential longer term impact will continue, and a number of boreholes are to be drilled around the point of discharge to enable monitoring of the impacts on groundwater. Natural Resources Wales are providing advice on weather and hydrology and are overseeing the proposals for remediation submitted by the operator.On Saturday I visited Nantycaws to see the ongoing work to minimise the impacts of the oil spill for myself. I met Emyr Roberts, chief executive of NRW, and his local team, and thanked NRW staff at the incident centre in Cross Hands for their work in co-ordinating the response. I also met senior representatives and contractors of the operator, Valero, to see the remedial work that they had put in place. Whilst such an incident should, of course, be prevented in the first place, I am satisfied with the incident response and handling. The speed of the response has contained the spread of the kerosene and avoided wider impacts. I am receiving regular updates on the situation and will continue to monitor its progress.In order for Valero to replace the fractured pipeline, the A48 will unfortunately need to be closed in both directions from the evening of 14 October to early Monday 17 October. All traffic will be diverted along the official diversion route through Llangunnor. Whilst I acknowledge this will cause inconvenience for people and businesses in west Wales, the weekend closure should minimise the impact on the travelling public and allow a speedy completion of the necessary works to restore the pipeline and seal the affected section.Once the incident is concluded, the Health and Safety Executive and NRW, as the relevant regulators, will investigate the cause of the pipeline breach and the pollution incident respectively, and will take appropriate action under their powers.

Adam Price AC: I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her statement this afternoon, and also for the telephone conversation that we had early on Friday morning and her willingness to visit the area on Saturday afternoon. She mentioned that she was content with the speed of the response, but may I ask for a little more information about the timetable? When exactly was NRW informed by the company of the reduction in pressure in the pipeline? When did NRW staff visit the site on the first occasion? When did they decide that the spill was more serious? When was the pipeline closed? And when did the remaining oil in the pipeline cease to leak further?The isolation valves were closed, according to the information that I have, in the Llandeilo and Llangain areas. Can the Cabinet Secretary explain why the valve that is apparently closer to the area of Nantgaredig was not closed, which could have perhaps prevented tens of thousands of litres of oil from being leaked?Does the Cabinet Secretary agree that we need a full inquiry into the cause of this unfortunate incident? Can she also confirm that NRW’s powers include the right to bring prosecutions if there is evidence of malpractice? When, for example, was the last time that this pipeline was inspected? And, of course, this company is a company with an income of £4 billion per annum, so can we be given an assurance that it will pay compensation to local residents and farmers affected by this?Has the pipeline been registered under the Pipelines Safety Regulations 1996, and if not, why?Ac yn olaf, o ran mater yr A48, bydd hi’n gwerthfawrogi a chyfeiriwyd at hyn eisoes, wrth gwrs, yr effaith y bydd hyn yn ei chael yn lleol ar drigolion sydd eisoes yn gorfod ymdopi, nos Wener, er enghraifft, â chau’r ffordd i un cyfeiriad—effaith ddifrifol.A ystyriwyd yr holl ddewisiadau eraill yn y fan yma o ran y gwaith adfer sydd angen ei wneud ar y biblinell? Rydym wedi clywed, er enghraifft, na fydd y gwaith yn cael ei wneud dydd a nos.Does bosib na ddylem ni ystyried hynny cyn cau yr hyn sydd, wedi'r cyfan, yn brif wythïen i’r gorllewin cyfan i’r ddau gyfeiriad.Felly, a yw hi'n fodlon bod yr holl ddewisiadau eraill wedi eu hystyried, ac a wnaiff hi gadarnhau bod o leiaf un o'r asiantaethau perthnasol wedi gwrthwynebu'r cynnig mewn gwirionedd i gau'r ffordd i’r ddau gyfeiriad pan gafodd hynny ei gynnig iddynt i ddechrau?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Adam Price, for those questions. In relation to the timeline, I can inform Members that, last Tuesday—so, 4 October—the first phone call received by NRW from Valero was at 10:46 when Valero said that they were self-reporting damage to a kerosene pipeline and where the location was. The quantity of discharge at that time was unknown, and they had approved contractors being—. They were using approved contractors to investigate and process a repair and clean-up. At 11 a.m., so very quickly after, Valero called back NRW and confirmed there had been a leak, but they were unsure if any oil—. They didn't think any oil had reached a watercourse, but they had called the contractors in case. NRW officers then did visit the site on their own—. You know, they wanted to see for themselves, so they then visited the site. So, as I said, I was very content with the response and I think NRW have co-ordinated the response in a very professional way.In relation to the questions regarding the valves, I have been told that the valves were switched off, as you say, to contain the oil that was in the pipe. You asked about compensation to the local residents, and I think this is an issue that I can't really comment on at the moment. I mentioned that Natural Resources Wales and HSE will be able to investigate the cause of the breach, once the incident is concluded. They will take the appropriate action under their powers, and I don't really think it would be right for me to comment further ahead of that work being undertaken. And I think we need to wait until all the investigations are done.Regarding the impact of the planned A48 road closures, Members will appreciate, Presiding Officer, that this is really a matter for my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure, but, obviously, he's not here today. So, I'm able to respond to certain concerns and, you know, I want Members to realise this decision was not taken lightly and to have the road both ways closed over the weekend I know will cause inconvenience, but I think, because it is a weekend, that should minimise the impact on the travelling public and allow a speedy completion of the necessary works to restore the pipeline and seal the affected section.

Joyce Watson AC: Cabinet Secretary, I have spoken with a senior spokesperson from Valero regarding the kerosene spillage in Nantycaws, and I was assured, because I asked very much the same questions that have already been asked to you, that immediately upon realising that there was a pressure drop within that pipe—because that's how they knew—they notified NRW and other agencies therein. And I think it's only right and fair at this point, before I move on, to recognise the hard work that has been done by those staff—continually done by the staff—outside their normal working hours so that they can do their best to protect the public from all the other issues that I think were fairly stated by Adam Price. And I think it's also fair to mention the emergency services, because the fire authority also turned up and responded as quickly and efficiently as they could. So, I want to put those things on the record.I did drive through here, actually, on Sunday, and I have to tell you that it was a three-quarter-of-an-hour journey from one end of Carmarthen to getting up the other end, and that was on a Sunday afternoon at 4 o’clock in the afternoon. So, you know, it is probably wise to say that, whilst it might be on a weekend, nonetheless, there will be significant inconvenience. I probably unwisely chose to travel at 4 o’clock, not thinking, because I wasn’t shopping, that maybe the shops were closing at the same time, so I suppose it’s fair to add that. But, nonetheless, that’s how long it took me to go from one end of Carmarthen to get back onto the A48.So, anyway, moving on, I understand that there were four sites of pollution and that now a total of three of those have been cleared, but one is still being recovered. I did ask the question, of course, about downstream and any effect on the Towy and was assured, at this point, that that is an unlikely situation. Nonetheless, while that is the case, and I recognise that people might be impacted for a few days by having to go around the road, what I’m really concerned about is that impact on that watercourse and how we intend to monitor any effects within that watercourse that have happened—it has destroyed it, let’s be clear: if you poison a river, you have destroyed it—and how it is going to be monitored and brought back to life.I was elected just after the Sea Empress; I know how devastating these things are, and I’m not suggesting that this is on that scale at all. I will thank, however, Valero for being honest when I asked questions and also, as far as I know, they’ve been on site and they’ve apologised profusely for the pollution, which was unmistakeable, because I smelled it myself on Sunday, in the air. At the moment, as far as I’m led to believe and others are led to believe, the fumes were not toxic. But some families did choose to move from there.So, I think, at this stage, what could be done perhaps has been done, but, in moving forward, I think what is important for me to know, as somebody representing that area, is that the monitoring of that site will be diligent, will be long term, and will be reported back to us.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Joyce Watson, for those questions. I’m very pleased you have met with Valero and I should have said that both Valero and NRW are very happy to meet any Assembly Member to discuss this matter. You’re quite right, we should also take the opportunity to thank the emergency services for their attendance.In relation to the A48, I did say I do accept there will be inconvenience, but my colleague Ken Skates’s department wanted to avoid half-term week. It’s about minimising the impact, but of course there’s no good time. As I say, we didn’t take the decision lightly and we’re very sorry that we’ve had to do it and we’re very disappointed that we’ve had to take this course of action, but I do think Members will agree it’s the only way forward.I was very pleased also that a hotline was set up by Valero, and NRW obviously have one, and I know there had been some calls. I was told there had been two calls, even on the Friday, from local houses and these residents have been visited straight away, because I think it’s really important and it’s absolutely a priority for me that people’s concerns are addressed, particularly in relation to public health.I mentioned that 140,000 litres is the figure that we’ve been given by Valero in relation to the spill. And today I’ve been told—today’s update is that 100,000 litres have been recovered, which I think is a significant amount. In relation to monitoring, NRW have had officers out monitoring the river daily. They’ve carried out an ecological assessment and a fish carcase count, which I understand remains at 100. The company involved have specialist contractors assessing the impact on land. They’re liaising with NRW’s geoscience team and I know NRW are chairing the tactical technical group, where all interested partner agencies and Valero are focusing on mitigating the impact of the oil spill. But, you’re right, this is long term, and I want to give Members assurance that I am monitoring this very carefully. I’m receiving several updates a day and I, of course, am very happy to report back to Members.

Angela Burns AC: Minister, thank you very much for your statement today. I think that your response and the response from Valero have been entirely reasonable, given the circumstances—no-one wanted this to happen, no-one expected it to happen, and it is very, very unfortunate, to say the least.I think that Adam Price raised some excellent points in the comments and I’d like to actually align myself with them. Although I would add that I believe that any investigation should be conducted by the statutory bodies and any penalties coming forward should also be as a result of those investigations by the statutory bodies. I don’t think it’s incumbent upon any of us to second-guess either what happened or to lay out what we think any punishment should be.I do have one concern, though: in your letter of 7 October, you referred to the fact that this pipeline is 12m below ground and that you cannot be sure of the condition of the pipe or of the cause of the leak. I’ve also been discussing this with Valero, who—and I agree with Joyce Watson—have been very straight about it all and said it as they see it, and they don’t know either. So, have you got any contingency plan in place in case the A48 has to be closed for longer than the weekend? Because, when they finally dig down to get to it, I understand they’re going to go in from the side and knock through the tarmac, but if it actually turns out to be worse and they’re going to have to take the road up in order to do whatever it is they need to do—so, really, do we have a contingency plan in place in case this closure is going to go for much longer than anticipated?I would also like to ask if you would liaise with your colleague, Ken Skates, Cabinet Secretary for business, to talk to him about whether or not we can hasten the entire issue of the A48. My concern is that the weekend after next is the beginning of half-term. As Joyce Watson said, that road is absolutely packed. We’ve got the tourists coming down; it’s vitally important that that artery is opened up for Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire. I don’t think there are any further points west of that, but we really do need to make sure that tourists can come—it’s a vital part of our industry. So, would you please give me your view on whether or not you think that we could try to persuade 24/7 working to be put in place to get that road fixed as soon as possible?Finally, I’d like to say how impressed I was by the way the silver command response team swung into action and how all the organisations came together, and, on behalf of the Welsh Conservatives, I’d like you to express our thanks to them because they have really proven that this is what the emergency services are all about and they’ve done exceptionally well under the circumstances.

For information, Ceredigion is west of Carmarthen.

Angela Burns AC: I beg your pardon, Presiding Officer, but not west of Pembrokeshire. [Laughter.]

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer, and I thank Angela Burns for those comments and certainly the ones around the silver command team. You’re absolutely right: it was very good to see just how well NRW did co-ordinate that multi-agency response and silver command has met on a daily basis and I’ve received an update from them.I’m very happy to talk to Ken Skates’s officials in his absence. As I mentioned—I think it was in my response to Joyce Watson—we’re very aware that the weekend after next is the start of half-term and that’s why we have chosen this weekend. I’m sure the Member will be aware that one side of the A48 had been planned for closure while Valero had worked on that pipe.In relation to the fact that it’s 12m down, as you said, the main pipeline that the leak reported from has been switched off and there’s now very little oil being collected in the stream, which we hope means that it’s not leaking. Unfortunately, Valero can’t reach the damaged pipe because it’s been sealed off by the Health and Safety Executive. So, Valero are going to build a new pipe alongside the pipe and reconnect it, when HSE say that’s the case, and then they’ll be able to look at the old pipe. So, I think it is important that we have those conversations with officials to make sure that we do cover all eventualities along the road. But, as I say, Members will appreciate that this work has to be done and I’m hoping that it can be done over those four days.In relation to the 24/7 working, as I say I will speak to the Cabinet Secretary’s officials.

And, finally, Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas AC: Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her statement and just ask a few questions following what has been discussed this afternoon? First of all, I understand that there isn’t yet an explanation or a reason for this particular incident, but it’s still a serious pollution event on this land, one of the most serious that we’ve had in the past few years. Now, local people will certainly be asking whether there is a link between this incident, the kerosene spillage, and the fact that the pipe was being worked on in general terms. So what kind of statement can the Cabinet Secretary make in terms of an inquiry at this time to ensure that the work that’s being done on the pipe in other areas isn’t going to lead to a similar incident again, and what kind of work is happening in that context?The second question I have is about the impact on the environment. I understand that the kerosene hasn’t reached the River Towy, and I hope that that doesn’t happen, but there has been a serious effect on Nant Pibwr itself, and everyone will, perhaps, have seen the images of the dead fish, which suggest that they died in the stream because of the pollution. Will there now be steps taken by NRW—paid for by the company, hopefully—to restore the stream and to ensure that there is a restocking of fish in the stream to ensure that it does come back to life, as it were, so that it is alive again? And the final point is that the Cabinet Secretary will be aware that this pipe goes through the majority of the region that I represent. On the way to the midlands, it runs through the south of mid Wales, through many isolated areas. What kind of discussions is she having, or is NRW having, with Valero at present to ensure that there is an inquiry and assurance given for the rest of the pipe to ensure—we can’t make it 100 per cent sure, but to try and make sure that there isn’t another vulnerability in this very long pipe?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I thank Simon Thomas for his questions. I’ve already said that I think we cannot speculate as to the cause of it. Once the incident has been concluded, which I hope will be very soon, that’s the time, then, for NRW and HSE to carry out a full investigation. I would like to assure Members that I did ask NRW if, at the current time, they felt they had additional resources to manage this incident and they assured me that they had.In relation to the pipe, you’re right, it does carry fuel, oil, to the midlands, to Manchester and also to Heathrow. So, those are discussions that I’ve had and I’ve been reassured in relation to the issues that the Member raised.Again, the impact on the environment: we very much hope it won’t reach the River Towy and, as I said, the amount of oil that’s being collected is diminishing now, which I think can be—it’s a very positive thing, going forward. And, again, in the long term, it’s, again, too early to talk about that, but, obviously, those are discussions I will be having with NRW.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary. That brings today’s proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:43.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Jenny Rathbone: What progress is the Welsh Government making towards building zero carbon housing?

Mark Drakeford: The energy performance of new homes in Wales was improved through the 2014 changes to building regulations. Further improvements will be looked at as part of meeting our emission reduction commitments under the Environment (Wales) Act 2016.

Huw Irranca-Davies: Will the First Minister make a statement on whether the Wales Bill meets the UK Government's stated aim of providing an enduring settlement for Wales?

Mark Drakeford: I concur with the view set out in the carefully-argued and authoritative report of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee. The Bill contains some welcome elements but, without significant amendment, it will not deliver the lasting, durable settlement we had been hoping for.

John Griffiths: What level of priority will be given to education in deciding Welsh Government policies?

Mark Drakeford: Education remains a central priority for this Government.

Jeremy Miles: Will the First Minister make a statement on vocational qualifications in Wales?

Mark Drakeford: The Welsh Government recognises the value of vocational qualifications and through the Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009 ensures that all learners are offered at least three vocational qualifications at key stage 4 and at least five vocational courses at 16-18 in local curriculum offers.

Hefin David: Will the First Minister make a statement on the importance of trade unions in Welsh civil society?

Mark Drakeford: Trade unions are the voice of working people in Wales and a key partner of the Welsh Government in delivering our programme for government.

Sian Gwenllian: Will the First Minister make a statement on health services in Arfon?

Mark Drakeford: Welsh Government continues to work with the Betsi Cadwaladr university health board and other partners to deliver high quality health services that provide the best possible outcomes for the people of Arfon and throughout north Wales.